Oops.. curmudgeonette... sorry, y'all!
Tina Terry - ELL Teacher
Payson High School & Rim Country Middle School
Room AUD-1 at PHS
Phone: PHS: 928-474-2233, ext. #2548
Cell phone: 928-595-0528
"To appreciate nonsense requires a serious interest in life." - Humorist
& Illustrator Gelett Burgess (1866-1951)
"For myself - I am an optimist; it does not seem to be much use being
anything else." (Sir Winston S. Churchill, speech at the Lord Mayor's
banquest, London, Nov. 9, 1954.)
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From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Terry,Tina
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 4:40 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Herb's remote past, continued
OK - fair warning... I'm going to go (my own term) "all Gordian Knot" on
this issue:
I think the term "remote past" appears to be essentially what attorneys
- those notorious constructors of incomprehensible documents in English
that no one can decipher except (allegedly) them - call a "term of art."
It could perhaps provide an informal term some might find useful to
describe historic events (although the adjective "remote," in and of
itself, is entirely subjective, and would thus have to be defined as
"remote" specifically relevant to a specific event in order to have any
historic chronological meaning at all.)
However, to me, an English teacher, "remote past" appears to be an
arbitrarily made-up, vague and wholly unsatisfactory phantom verb tense
that can neither augment nor supplant any of the classic English verb
tenses one uses (and teaches others to use) to describe various events
that transpired in the past, are transpiring in the present, or will
transpire in the future. These verb tenses are, and have been for
decades, classically defined and accepted, and, IMHO, adequately cover
all time frames.
Here are some resources re: English verb tenses that I use for my
students:
http://esl.about.com/library/weekly/aa011201a.htm
<http://esl.about.com/library/weekly/aa011201a.htm>
http://esl.about.com/od/englishgrammar/a/tense_resource.htm
<http://esl.about.com/od/englishgrammar/a/tense_resource.htm>
http://www.englishpage.com/verbpage/verbtenseintro.html
http://www.englishpage.com/verbpage/simplepresent.html
http://www.eslteachersboard.com/pdf/Verb-Tenses3.gif
As for "remote past," it reminds me again of attorneys (my husband and
I have worked with several on writing briefs), who might refer to a
poorly written law as null and void due to vagueness. See:
http://law.jrank.org/pages/11152/Void-Vagueness-Doctrine.html
I've been trying to follow this discussion about this alleged "remote
past" verb tense and I truly don't see to what end or for what purpose
such a term is even being suggested or promoted... perhaps I'm missing
something, and/or perhaps I'm simply an intransigent and incorrigible
curmudeonette, but such a debate seems not to be a bona fide grammatical
one, but rather akin to a religious argument, sort of like the medieval
one concerning many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
But then maybe I'm missing something WAY too esoteric for a mere
high-school/middle-school English teacher... but honestly, I think not.
BTW, I very much like the term "jousting with phantoms" to describe this
exercise.
Tina Terry - ELL Teacher
Payson High School & Rim Country Middle School
Room AUD-1 at PHS
Phone: PHS: 928-474-2233, ext. #2548
Cell phone: 928-595-0528
"To appreciate nonsense requires a serious interest in life." - Humorist
& Illustrator Gelett Burgess (1866-1951)
"For myself - I am an optimist; it does not seem to be much use being
anything else." (Sir Winston S. Churchill, speech at the Lord Mayor's
banquest, London, Nov. 9, 1954.)
THIS ELECTRONIC MESSAGE, INCLUDING ANY ACCOMPANYING DOCUMENTS, IS
CONFIDENTIAL, intended for the sole use of the addressee(s), and may
contain information that is privileged and exempt from disclosure under
applicable law. If you are neither the intended recipient nor
responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, please
note that any dissemination, distribution, copying or the taking of any
action in reliance upon the message is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this communication in error, please notify the sender
immediately. Thank you.
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 1:22 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Herb's remote past, continued
Brad wrote: Please tell me what 'remote past' means to you and how it
works. And, importantly, illustrate it, if you please.
.brhad.26feb10.
When you use the words 'remote past', what do you mean? What is it?
By those two words, 'remote past', do you mean 'past perfect? Is 'remote
past' the same as 'past perfect'? If it is, you have us jousting with
phantoms.
.bradagain.
--- On Fri, 2/26/10, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Herb's remote past, continued
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Friday, February 26, 2010, 3:05 PM
Brad,
Dick gives an excellent example of past perfect with a remote
past meaning, and Craig makes the point well that the meaning of remote
past and the interpretation of a past perfect form are subjective. This
is true of most areas of language. "A lot" can quantify a teaspoon of
salt if it's poured on one fried egg, but it can also apply to fifty
tons of salt in a highway department storage barn. As I've said before
of your putative incorrect examples of "had," it all depends on context.
Your statement that people mistakenly use "had" before past tense verbs,
that they change past tense irregular verbs to past participles after
"had," are not empirically testable statements. There is no way to know
or test the writer's intentions. Your statement that those weak verbs
after what you claim are incorrect "had" are functionally past tense
depends of a meaning for "functionally" that is unlike the way any
grammarian or linguist uses the term. It is a subjective judgment of
yours that apparently no one else is able to replicate consistently.
Herb
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 10:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Herb's remote past, continued
STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Of course, the fact that remote past was a possible meaning for "had"
eight centuries ago doesn't mean that it is in the 21st c., but the
usage has such a long, continuous, and consistent history that I find it
difficult to fault it.
- - - - - - - -
Herb,
I understand that you don't fault the use of 'had' to mean the 'remote'
past but what is the 'remote past'? That was my question to you. What is
it? And whatever it is, is it something that those who teach English
grammar should teach?
I think 'the past' is past. Everything from the beginning of time until
this moment is "past". If you think grammar teachers should teach
something called 'the remote past', I hope you will illustrate how you
think it works, within the context of 'Standard English', which is what
is taught, and hopefully learned, at this time in the history of the
English-speaking world.
I talked to him an hour ago. I talked to him yesterday. I talked to him
a week ago. I talked to him two weeks ago. I had talked to him three
weeks ago? because everything longer ago that two weeks ago is 'remote
past'? Or is everything before the Battle of Hastings 'remote'? or
before the birth of Christ? When did it stop being 'remote' and start
being 'past'?
Please tell me what 'remote past' means and how it works. And,
importantly, illustrate it, if you please.
.brhad.26feb10.
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