I have a feeling this debate over traditional grammar will continue to
go in a circle. We don't agree on what traditional grammar is. We
don't agree on the relationships between traditional grammar and
language learning and teaching. If we want to spend some time
specifying what traditional grammar is and what it teaches and
encompasses, then we might have a productive topic to discuss. I
suspect Eduard, Phil, and I, for example, agree on more than is
apparent, but we're using different language and making different
assumptions.
Herb
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Cynthia Baird
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 12:22 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The role of English teachers
After a long period of silence, I finally see a thread that strikes a
chord. And I have to agree w/Phil. (Richard, notice the deliberate use
of a fragment? Does that make up for the fact that I am a high school
English teacher that teaches burdensome traditional grammar?).
I do not believe that we English teachers, high school or other levels.
"slow down" the progress of language. We strive to preserve clear
communication and enable our language learners to be heard in a variety
of settings. I will never be bound by contemporary novelists--no Tom
Clancy or any other popular writer will convince me of what is clear
communication for a variety of reasons, most of which have to do with
commercialism. I've said this before on this listserve, and I will say
it again after years of teaching in a remote, rural, bilingual
geographical area: good writers are good grammarians. They know "the
rules" and they know how to break them and when. My job is to teach
students what the majority of the world uses to communciate clearly and
then facilitate their "breakage" of the rules.
Quite frankly, in case you haven't noticed, I am tired of defending my
teaching of grammar, traditional or otherwise, to my high school
colleagues. I teach grammar and will continue to do so because I believe
that language is structured and rule-bound, whether conscious or
unconscious. In my experience, at the high school level, a lack of
rules opens language arts to ridicule by other disciplines. I'm not
suggesting that we instruct in an overly prescriptive way, as anyone who
has read my posts know. But to suggest that language usage is without
"rules" is ridiculous.
In a secondary world that diminishes the importance of language arts in
favor of math and science, we are doing a disservice to our field when
we throw out form and structure. Language users follow form and
structure far more than we realize, and teachers of English or any other
language need to capture that form and structure and defend it before
language arts becomes relegated to the curricular dustbin.
Change is not always productive, particularly where language is
involved. Perhaps I've read too much Orwell.
Cyndi B.
Phil Bralich <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Your list is not exactly what I had in mind but it does help
illustrate my point. All 15 of those things are statements about
problems in traditional grammar without a single example to substantiate
them. What I think would be eye opening to most people is to try and
create a list of things that need to be expunged from traditional
grammar books. You will find there is very, very little. The only one
that even comes close to being acceptablt (tho is not) is the one that
dares to bolldy say that infinitives should not be split.
Phil Bralich
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Betting
Sent: Aug 17, 2006 5:40 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The role of English teachers
A short response to Phil's request for a list of
problems with traditional grammar. Here is the list I have been working
on for a couple of years. I don't intend to offend anyone. My point is
that traditional grammar-the grammar of popular handbooks that I used
fifty years ago and that are apparently still used by a majority of
schools in the US, not accurate language analysis-is still being taught.
Teachers teach what they have been taught and know. And they teach what
their texts include, unless they have information with which to
supplement, and many do not.
These are meant to be strident generalizations in order
to get teachers to understand that there are problems with the old way.
After having said all this, I agree with one of the main
principles of ATEG: accurate, descriptive grammar (and much language
information) must be taught for at least two reasons: to allow a
discussion of language itself and to be able to use grammar information
to improve student style in writing and speaking.
It seems to me (and I may be wrong, this may be too
strong and it might be counterproductive to begin with a list of
negatives) that teachers have to understand the problems first and then
almost start over, deciding what to teach and how about language and
grammar so that the goals of student learning are met, not the goals of
covering traditional grammar material.
In my book I am fleshing out these items one by one,
after which I would put what the ATEG comes up in its scope and sequence
project.
Dick Betting
FIFTEEN PROBLEMS WITH TRADITIONAL GRAMMAR
1. TG, LIKE CATECHISM, TEACHES WELL, LEARNS POORLY
2. TG is BASED ON FALSE PROMISE: LEARN GRAMMAR FIRST,
IMPROVEMENT IN WRITING AND SPEAKING WILL FOLLOW ALMOST AUTOMATICALLY.
3. TG is BASED ON a FALSE PREMISE: KNOWING GRAMMAR WILL
MAKE STUDENTS BETTER WRITERS AND SPEAKERS.
4. TG claims to be everything students need to know
about language;
5. TG claims there is only one right way, one form of
correctness;
6. TGs contain mistaken information:
a. English in not derived from Latin
b. English does not have eight parts
of speech
c. English does not have six verb
tenses
d.
7. TG uses defective methodology: top down, deductive,
absolutes taught as
Gospel;
8. TG exploits the pedagogy of rote memorization,
passive acceptance;
9. TG uses confusing definitions for basic concepts:
language, grammar, usage, parts of speech;
10. TG wastes time and energy, too much time on minutiae
11. TG fails to put learned material to use;
12. TG fails to notice that language study is
philosophy, elaborate, abstract, multi-level, open-ended;
13. TG reinforces monotheistic social values and
standards at the expense of individuals, minorities and differents;
14. TG has no skeleton, no structure on which to hang
language and grammar
information;
15 TG is all fasteners and no projects.
----- Original Message -----
From: Phil Bralich
<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: The role of English teachers
The real problem is that there are few if any
traditional ideas that need to go. Someone should actually sit down and
make a list of ideas that need to be expunged from grammar teaching and
you would see there are actually only a few if any. The real problem is
that people want to wallow around in a sea of unaccountability where
pontification and pretense take precedence over good sense.
We should not be talking in terms of modern
versus traditional grammar as there is nearly zero difference. Instead
we should speak merely of teaching grammar and put the whole false
problem behind us.
If any one disagrees, please draw up a list of
tradtional notions that should be abandonded.
Phil Bralich
-----Original Message-----
From: "Paul E. Doniger"
Sent: Aug 16, 2006 7:22 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: The role of English teachers
Peter Adams raised an interesting issue
with: "In fact, I am wondering why the role of English teachers seems to
always be to slow down this process and defend the traditional
conventions." Is this really the role of English teachers? What do
others think about this?
Personally, I don't see myself as a
defender of traditional conventions at all. I suspect that many of my
colleagues in the high school English classroom feel the same as I do. I
rather see the English teacher in me as a promoter/fascilitator of deep
thinking (and critical and creative thinking) through the disciplines of
reading, writing, listening, and speaking. Grammar instruction is one
item in the toolbox, albeit an important one (and a too often neglected
one at that). However, it's not for me so much as a teaching of
convention as it is a teaching of the way language works -- as a means
towards better/deeper thinking in these four disciplines.
I'd add that as a drama teacher, grammar
is important in a similar way. When I ask my acting students to point up
the nouns or "play to (or 'with' or 'on')" the verbs, I need first to
make sure they know what these words are. My goal for them, however, is
not grammatical, but theatrical -- I want them to make the language
meaningful and rich, and to bring the text across clearly to the
audience.
Paul D.
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