Thanks very much for your message, Professor Catledge. I finally got around to looking up this book you recommended last month and it does seem to be interesting, as well as something that I might benefit from, though I doubt it's available here in Saudi Arabia. If the opportunity presents itself, perhaps I can purchase a copy elsewhere. Thanks again, Adnan Ashraf
________________________________________
From: Scott [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: A person will be with whom he loves. ATEG Digest - 5 Sep 2009 to 6 Sep 2009 (#2009-196)
I concur with Professor Stahlke and your evaluation of his response; indeed,
you have characterized most of his responses--even though I often differ
with him. For further explication on 'correctness' in English--or in any
language, I refer you to Joos, Martin. The five clocks. New York: Harcourt,
Brace & World, 1967. It is a small, inexpensive but invaluable book.
N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
history & languages
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 5 Sep 2009 to 6 Sep 2009 (#2009-196)
There are 2 messages totalling 565 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. A person will be with whom he loves. (2)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 12:25:30 +0300
From: Adnan Ashraf <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A person will be with whom he loves.
--_000_326EC266491B6C4EABAB7075C725BAC6023FC681FEIPAMainExipae_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Professor Stahlke:
Your illuminating, thought-provoking, and quick response is greatly appreci=
ated, and I thank you for it. God-willing, it will add to my motivation to =
review some grammar texts before classes start this upcoming term.
As for the sentence (A person will be with whom he loves), it is a translat=
ion of a tradition of the Prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him and grant him p=
eace).
Thanks very much (and to the facilitators of this list, as well),
Adnan Ashraf
________________________________
From: STAHLKE, HERBERT F [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Saturday, September 05, 2009 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: A person will be with whom he loves.
Adnan,
Let me address your sentence first and then some of the thoughts you expres=
s in your posting.
The sentence you ask about uses what is sometimes called an independent, or=
headless, relative clause, that is, a structure in which the sentence cont=
ains no head noun for the relative pronoun to refer to. This construction =
is generally considered to be a bit archaic. A good example of it is the p=
roverb =93Who laughs last laughs best.=94 In Present Day English we would,=
as you point out, use =93whomever=94 in such a construction since we now f=
orm independent relative clauses almost exclusively with indefinite relativ=
es.
On your question of number, whether =93whomever=94 invites a plural interpr=
etation, Let me suggest that =93whomever,=94 as an indefinite, is used gene=
rically here. It refers to the class of persons comprising whom one loves =
but does not suggest a specific person. In =93whom he loves,=94 =93whom=94=
has specific reference. As you point out, without a head it isn=92t clear=
whether the antecedent is singular or plural, but the reference would be s=
pecific, a specific person or specific people, such as one=92s family.
You ask whether the grammar of the sentence is perfect. We don=92t general=
ly use that word to describe the well-formedness or appropriateness of a se=
ntence. The use of =93ain=92t=94 in a sentence would make the sentence ina=
ppropriate in most cases for formal discourse. However, in establishing id=
entity with group that uses =93ain=92t=93 regularly, it might be judged app=
ropriate and well-formed for that dialect, and a sentence with a formally c=
orrect contraction might not be. Grammaticality, including appropriateness=
, tends more to be scalar than categorical.
Herb Stahlke
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Adnan Ashraf
Sent: 2009-09-05 06:31
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: A person will be with whom he loves.
Greetings,
God-willing, I would like to know if the grammar of the following sentence =
would be considered perfect:
A person will be with whom he loves.
To my ear, it sounds like something is missing, that the sentence should re=
ad: A person will be with those whom he loves. - OR - A person will be with=
the one whom he loves.
However, I have not been able to convince myself that the first instance is=
grammatically incorrect.
Finally, I have heard somebody utter the following variant of the sentence =
in question: A man will be with whomever he loves.
Am I right in concluding that whomever here suggests plurality, and that is=
the only way that this last sentence differs from A person will be with wh=
om he loves, which refers exclusively to a singular object of the prepositi=
on?
Any authoritative feedback would be appreciated.
Thanks, Adnan Ashraf
English language instructor
Institute of Public Administration
Jeddah, Saudi Arabia
http://portfolio.educ.kent.edu/ashrafa/jet/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_000_326EC266491B6C4EABAB7075C725BAC6023FC681FEIPAMainExipae_
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</head>
<body lang=3D"EN-US" vlink=3D"purple" link=3D"blue" ocsi=3D"x">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Tahoma" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"2">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Tahoma" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"2">Profess=
or Stahlke:</font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Tahoma" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"2"></font>=
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Tahoma" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"2">Your il=
luminating, thought-provoking, and quick response is greatly appreciated, a=
nd I thank you for it. God-willing, it will add to my motivation to re=
view some grammar texts before classes start
this upcoming term.</font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"tahoma"></font><font face=3D"Tahoma" color=
=3D"#000000" size=3D"2"></font> </div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Tahoma" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"2">As for =
the sentence (A person will be with whom he loves), it is a translation of =
a tradition of the Prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him and grant him peace).<=
/font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"tahoma"></font> </div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks very much (and to the facilitators of this list, as=
well),</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"tahoma" size=3D"2"></font> </div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"tahoma" size=3D"2">Adnan Ashraf</font></div>
</font></div>
<div id=3D"divRpF87102" style=3D"DIRECTION: ltr">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1">
<font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><b>From:</b> STAHLKE, HERBERT F [hstahlke@=
BSU.EDU]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, September 05, 2009 4:02 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: A person will be with whom he loves.<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div class=3D"Section1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Adnan,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></span> </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Let me address your sentence first and the=
n some of the thoughts you express in your posting.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></span> </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">The sentence you ask about uses what is so=
metimes called an independent, or headless, relative clause, that is, a str=
ucture in which the sentence contains
no head noun for the relative pronoun to refer to. This construction=
is generally considered to be a bit archaic. A good example of it is=
the proverb =93Who laughs last laughs best.=94 In Present Day Englis=
h we would, as you point out, use =93whomever=94 in such
a construction since we now form independent relative clauses almost exclu=
sively with indefinite relatives.
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></span> </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">On your question of number, whether =93who=
mever=94 invites a plural interpretation, Let me suggest that =93whomever,=
=94 as an indefinite, is used generically here.
It refers to the class of persons comprising whom one loves but does not s=
uggest a specific person. In =93whom he loves,=94 =93whom=94 has spec=
ific reference. As you point out, without a head it isn=92t clear whe=
ther the antecedent is singular or plural, but the reference
would be specific, a specific person or specific people, such as one=92s f=
amily. </span>
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></span> </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">You ask whether the grammar of the sentenc=
e is perfect. We don=92t generally use that word to describe the well=
-formedness or appropriateness of a sentence.
The use of =93ain=92t=94 in a sentence would make the sentence inappropria=
te in most cases for formal discourse. However, in establishing ident=
ity with group that uses =93ain=92t=93 regularly, it might be judged approp=
riate and well-formed for that dialect, and a sentence
with a formally correct contraction might not be. Grammaticality, in=
cluding appropriateness, tends more to be scalar than categorical. &n=
bsp; </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></span> </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Herb Stahlke
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></span> </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Emeritus Professor of English</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Ball State University</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Muncie, IN 47306</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></span> </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></span> </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></span> </p>
<div>
<div style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b=
5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: mediu=
m none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tah=
oma','sans-serif'">From:</span></b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAM=
ILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [=
mailto:[log in to unmask]]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Adnan Ashraf<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2009-09-05 06:31<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> A person will be with whom he loves.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-F=
AMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Greetings,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma=
','sans-serif'">God-willing, I would like to know if the grammar of the fol=
lowing sentence would be considered
<strong><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">perfect:</span><=
/strong></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=3D"center"><span =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 18pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">A person will=
be with whom he loves.</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma=
','sans-serif'">To my ear, it sounds like something is missing, that the se=
ntence should read: A person will be with
<strong><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">those</span></st=
rong> whom he loves. - OR - A person will be with
<strong><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">the one</span></=
strong> whom he loves.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma=
','sans-serif'">However, I have not been able to convince myself that the f=
irst instance is grammatically incorrect.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma=
','sans-serif'">Finally, I have heard somebody utter the following variant =
of the sentence in question: A man will be with
<strong><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">whomever </span>=
</strong>he loves.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma=
','sans-serif'">Am I right in concluding that whomever here suggests plural=
ity, and that is the only way that this last sentence differs from A person=
will be with whom he loves, which refers
exclusively to a singular object of the preposition?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma=
','sans-serif'">Any authoritative feedback would be appreciated.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma=
','sans-serif'">Thanks, Adnan Ashraf</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma=
','sans-serif'">English language instructor</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma=
','sans-serif'">Institute of Public Administration</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma=
','sans-serif'">Jeddah, Saudi Arabia</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma=
','sans-serif'"><a href=3D"http://portfolio.educ.kent.edu/ashrafa/jet/" tar=
get=3D"_blank">http://portfolio.educ.kent.edu/ashrafa/jet/</a></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit th=
e list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html an=
d select "Join or leave the list"
</p>
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ </p>
</div>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or =
leave the list"
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ </p>
</div>
</body>
</html>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_000_326EC266491B6C4EABAB7075C725BAC6023FC681FEIPAMainExipae_--
-----------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 14:46:42 -0400
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A person will be with whom he loves.
Adnan,
I'm going to ask a question about the Arabic original wording here, =
because I'm curious: Does the verb in that particular relative =
construction have a 3rd-person singular object suffix? If so, that might =
be an additional point influencing the translator to choose "whom rather =
than "whomever."
Bill Spruiell
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Adnan =
Ashraf
Sent: Sun 9/6/2009 5:25 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: A person will be with whom he loves.
=20
Professor Stahlke:
Your illuminating, thought-provoking, and quick response is greatly =
appreciated, and I thank you for it. God-willing, it will add to my =
motivation to review some grammar texts before classes start this =
upcoming term.
As for the sentence (A person will be with whom he loves), it is a =
translation of a tradition of the Prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him and =
grant him peace).
Thanks very much (and to the facilitators of this list, as well),
Adnan Ashraf
________________________________
From: STAHLKE, HERBERT F [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Saturday, September 05, 2009 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: A person will be with whom he loves.
Adnan,
Let me address your sentence first and then some of the thoughts you =
express in your posting.
The sentence you ask about uses what is sometimes called an independent, =
or headless, relative clause, that is, a structure in which the sentence =
contains no head noun for the relative pronoun to refer to. This =
construction is generally considered to be a bit archaic. A good =
example of it is the proverb "Who laughs last laughs best." In Present =
Day English we would, as you point out, use "whomever" in such a =
construction since we now form independent relative clauses almost =
exclusively with indefinite relatives.
On your question of number, whether "whomever" invites a plural =
interpretation, Let me suggest that "whomever," as an indefinite, is =
used generically here. It refers to the class of persons comprising =
whom one loves but does not suggest a specific person. In "whom he =
loves," "whom" has specific reference. As you point out, without a head =
it isn't clear whether the antecedent is singular or plural, but the =
reference would be specific, a specific person or specific people, such =
as one's family.
You ask whether the grammar of the sentence is perfect. We don't =
generally use that word to describe the well-formedness or =
appropriateness of a sentence. The use of "ain't" in a sentence would =
make the sentence inappropriate in most cases for formal discourse. =
However, in establishing identity with group that uses "ain't" =
regularly, it might be judged appropriate and well-formed for that =
dialect, and a sentence with a formally correct contraction might not =
be. Grammaticality, including appropriateness, tends more to be scalar =
than categorical.
Herb Stahlke
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Adnan Ashraf
Sent: 2009-09-05 06:31
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: A person will be with whom he loves.
Greetings,
God-willing, I would like to know if the grammar of the following =
sentence would be considered perfect:
A person will be with whom he loves.
To my ear, it sounds like something is missing, that the sentence should =
read: A person will be with those whom he loves. - OR - A person will be =
with the one whom he loves.
However, I have not been able to convince myself that the first instance =
is grammatically incorrect.
Finally, I have heard somebody utter the following variant of the =
sentence in question: A man will be with whomever he loves.
Am I right in concluding that whomever here suggests plurality, and that =
is the only way that this last sentence differs from A person will be =
with whom he loves, which refers exclusively to a singular object of the =
preposition?
Any authoritative feedback would be appreciated.
Thanks, Adnan Ashraf
English language instructor
Institute of Public Administration
Jeddah, Saudi Arabia
http://portfolio.educ.kent.edu/ashrafa/jet/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select =
"Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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End of ATEG Digest - 5 Sep 2009 to 6 Sep 2009 (#2009-196)
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