[1]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Squat
-toilet-with-tank.jpg/220px-Squat-toilet-with-tank.jpg
On Mon, 08 Aug 2011 13:19 -0500, "Geoffrey Layton"
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
I want to know what it takes to convince a roommate to leave the
toilet seat up!
Geoff Layton
____________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 12:48:14 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Holding their interest
To: [log in to unmask]
Thanks for bringing up the Rogerian argument, Seth! One of the
best writing courses I ever took in college was an expository
writing class that very well may have used the Wood text. The
Rogerian argument works very well in the classroom at many
levels. High school students enjoy the structure provided without
the rigidity of a formal essay. It can be used for topics as
complex as gun control or as humorous as convincing a roommate to
leave the toilet seat down. I would encourage secondary teachers
to give it a try!
John
On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Katz, Seth
<[2][log in to unmask]> wrote:
Geoff--
What you describe here sounds a lot like a Rogerian argument,
in which the author (A) first explains the position he or she
is opposed to (B), without criticism of any sort; the author
(A) simply shows that they understand position (B). Then the
author (A) offers non-pejorative critique of position (B): 'I
see a problem/weakness/issue in position (B) that you (person
who holds position [B]) have not addressed.' Then the author
(A) offers elements of their own position on the issue that
(A) thinks will help strengthen the opposing position (B).
Based on the work of psychologist Carl Rogers, this type of
argument is a mainstay of mediation: it shows that you are
actually listening to the 'other,' treating their point of
view as valid and thoughtful; and it presents your own
argument not as antagonistic, but as potentially useful in
helping the opposition achieve a more effective result (and
one that both sides can possible agree to as a fair
compromise). The only argumentative writing textbook I know of
that has a whole Rogerian assignment is Nancy Wood's
Essentials of Argument.
I have a copy of They Say/I Say on my shelf--now I'll have to
look at it! Thanks!
Seth
Dr. Seth Katz
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Bradley University
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf
of Geoffrey Layton
Sent: Sun 8/7/2011 10:13 PM
To: [3][log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Holding their interest
Paul,
I think the most valuable part of the T/I Say is the "They
say" portion because students must be able to identify what
they're responding to - and why. In other words, they have to
ask (and answer) the question what is it about the text that
makes it interesting. I've had a lot of luck teaching
"commonplaces" in the context of the following template, "Most
(many, the author, my parents, etc) seem to think X (the
"commonplace"), but a closer look reveals Y. It's important to
recognize that Y is (just as important, preferable, superior
to, different from, etc) X because . . ."
Geoff Layton
________________________________
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 16:46:38 -0700
From: [4][log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Holding their interest
To: [5][log in to unmask]
THis is interesting. Last year, we adopted the They Say/I Say
(with readings) text for our revised senior English
curriculum. This year we'll be using it again (first semester
only). It's hard to assess yet how successful it's been, but
so far, it looks like we made a good choice. I'm open to any
ideas about using this text that any of you have, and I'd love
to share them with the rest of our senior English team.
Thanks,
Paul D.
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as
an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
________________________________
From: Geoffrey Layton <[6][log in to unmask]>
To: [7][log in to unmask]
Sent: Sun, August 7, 2011 7:02:58 PM
Subject: Holding their interest
Carol - There are, I think, two ways to look at the problem
that I assume you're referring to - student lack of engagement
in the basic writing class (or any other writing/comp course
for that matter!). Sometimes, as you indicate, the way to
approach it is to make the subject matter more "interesting"
(although what is interesting to one student may not be to
another) - and the way I've seen that addressed is to focus on
current events, social issues, and politics (often, of course,
they merge into one). Unfortunately, tackling "big subjects"
(the environment, racism, the budget crisis, etc) is tough
enough for professional writers, and it's routine to see basic
writers totally fall to pieces when the subject matter becomes
"interesting."
Another problem with this approach is that it pretty much
leaves the grammar to take care of itself, often in
"mini-lessons" or "grammar in the context in writing" where
grammar and mechanical issues are dealt with after the fact.
The problem here, it seems, is that grammar and mechanics
don't begin to cover the writing problems of freshman basic
writers - even if every grammar "error" gets corrected, the
writing is still a mess.
The other way to address the problem is to work on the
assumption that student interest grows along with their
command of the subject matter - in other words, the more they
learn about how to write, the more engaged/interested they
become in the act of writing. This is the idea behind the book
"They say/I say: The moves that matter in academic writing" by
Graff and Birkenstein. Although at first it may seem geared to
higher level writing class than what you have (the book was
written to deal with first-year freshman writing problems at
UIC), the approach is still a sound one - to help students
gain control over their writing. As Stanley Fish says, "Drill
students in the forms that enable meaning . . . What students
must learn are the forms; the content will follow."
Geoff Layton
________________________________
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 13:12:00 -0700
From: [8][log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: 22 Britannia Road
To: [9][log in to unmask]
I just re-joined the list after a long time away. I'll be
teaching basic writing and grammar to freshman community
college students. I'd appreciate any suggestions and practical
exercises for basic writers to make the subject more
interesting for non-enthusiasts!
Carol Morrison
--- On Sun, 8/7/11, Jane Mairs
<[10][log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Jane Mairs <[11][log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: 22 Britannia Road
To: [12][log in to unmask]
Date: Sunday, August 7, 2011, 3:18 PM
There are too many argumentative and angry exchanges in
this listserv and too few productive discussions.
I am leaving.
Jane Mairs
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[13][log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad
Johnston
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2011 9:19 AM
To: [14][log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: 22 Britannia Road
For those not set for html, color and graphics by
whatever name, this will be hard to follow.
.br-had.sun.07aug11.
________________________________
From: Geoffrey Layton <[15][log in to unmask]>
To: [16][log in to unmask]
Sent: Sunday, August 7, 2011 12:17 AM
Subject: Re: 22 Britannia Road
Thanks, Brad - now we're getting somewhere! Indeed we
are, thanks to you! A thousand welcomes. The next step is to
analyze the change in meaning between the two tenses. Holy
cow! Where have YOU been for the last dozen years? For
example, I'm not sure that it's accurate to say that "there is
nothing the word 'had' can do for a past tense verb that the
verb cannot do for itself." A past tense verb, G. The motto
doesn't say 'a verb', it says a PAST TENSE verb. It seems to
me that "had" does something extremely important to the past
tense verb in this particular piece of writing as the simple
past which one? would put <Aurek> Janusz in a place where the
writer doesn't want him. The perfect tense implies that the
goodbyes HAD BEEN said before Aurek finds himself in his
current situation, Indeed they were, but not 'had been'.
Exactly the point. The past tense of 'to be' is 'was' and
'were', not 'had been'. The good-byes were said earlier. Lotsa
things happened earlier. All Gaul was divided, Teddy Roosevelt
stormed San Juan Hill. Lotsa things. which it seems to me is
exactly the position in which the writer wants his character
to be.
All past events were preceded by other past events.
That's not what the past perfect is for. The past perfect is a
specialized device that lets us show that by the time
something happened, something else had already happened. If
you like ... "By the time Janusz found himself on the train,
he had already left home and in doing so, had said his
good-byes to his wife." A bit back-handed but this is exactly
why the past perfect is not just a convention. It provides a
distinct time-sequence separation. Thanks for the push down
that road.
Geoff Layton
.br-had.sun.07aug11.
________________________________
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 20:41:41 -0700
From: [17][log in to unmask]
<[18]http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=br.hadvines
@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: 22 Britannia Road
To: [19][log in to unmask]
<[20]http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ATEG@LISTSE
RV.MUOHIO.EDU>
Brad and Martha,
Here's a juicy one, from "22 Britannia Road", by Amanda
Hodgkinson, c.2011, page 24.
In carriages up and down the train, soldiers were
singing and sharing jokes but Janusz stayed silent. He prayed
Silvana and Aurek would be safe. He'd said good-bye casually,
as if he were just going out to buy a newspaper. He'd told
himself it was braver to leave like that. He'd met up with his
father a few days before and that had been the old man's
advice.
"Don't dwell too long on saying your good-byes.
Women always cry and make a fuss. Make it quick. Good-byes are
best kept short. Be strong and you'll make a good soldier."
His father had looked down then, his hand hovering over
Janusz's shoulder. "Just make sure you come back in one
piece."
Now Janusz regretted the way he had left. In truth
it hadn't been bravery that had made him turn his back so
quickly on his wife and child. It had been the hot tears that
had pushed at his eyes as he'd brushed Silvana's cheek with a
kiss. His father had been wrong. She'd been the brave one,
standing there dry-eyed, holding their son tightly in her
arms.
Thirteen 'had's in the quote. Once you get on the Had
Highway, it's hard to find the exit ramp.
I have an idea. The first 'had' -- where she writes,
'He'd said goodbye casually' -- is a nice example of the Bad
Grammar Flashback Convention, which the schools of "creative
writing" all teach as the way it should be done. Let's assume
the author wrote, as she should have written, "When he left
his home, he said goodbye casually", and then take it from
there. Disregard that first 'had' and consider the last 12.
Apply the past-tense default to each of them and see what you
get. What makes sense? What conveys the intent? If the past
tense says what it should say, that's the one you want. Don't
put 'had' in front of it. "There is nothing the word 'had' can
do for a past tense verb that the verb cannot do for itself."
For Geoffrey, here's the way it should have been
written:
In carriages up and down the train, soldiers were
singing and sharing jokes but Janusz stayed silent. He prayed
Silvana and Aurek would be safe. [When he left his home], he
said good-bye casually, as if he were just going out to buy a
newspaper. He told himself it was braver to leave like that.
He met up with his father a few days before and that was the
old man's advice.
"Don't dwell too long on saying your good-byes.
Women always cry and make a fuss. Make it quick. Good-byes are
best kept short. Be strong and you'll make a good soldier."
His father looked down then, his hand hovering over Janusz's
shoulder. "Just make sure you come back in one piece."
Now Janusz regretted the way he left. In truth it
wasn't bravery that made him turn his back so quickly on his
wife and child. It was the hot tears that pushed at his eyes
as he brushed Silvana's cheek with a kiss. His father was
wrong. She was the brave one, standing there dry-eyed, holding
their son tightly in her arms.
As you can see, there is nothing the word 'had' can do
for a past tense verb that the verb cannot do for itself.**
** Clear statement of position, for Geoffrey's
consideration.
.br-had.sat.06aug11.
.
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References
1. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Squat-toilet-with-tank.jpg/220px-Squat-toilet-with-tank.jpg
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18. [log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]
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20. [log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]
21. http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
22. http://ateg.org/
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24. http://ateg.org/
25. http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
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27. http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
28. http://ateg.org/
29. http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
30. http://ateg.org/
31. http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
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34. http://ateg.org/
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