Scott,
My word choice ("adjective made out of a verb") was partially based on
what is probably an underestimation of the amount of detail
seventh-graders normally work with. Since I don't deal with
middle-schoolers, I know that my usual ways of talking about grammar with
college students would quite likely be disastrous in a middle-school class
-- hence my attempt to compensate by simplifying.
I used "partially," though, because I think there's also a good chance
that participles that are quite frequently used in adjectival function end
up becoming adjectives -- speakers don't necessarily access the word as a
verb form directly. "Exciting" and "boring" would be good candidates for
this kind of shift, but not "defenestrating" or "bletting" etc. I don't
think the participle-as-adjective vs.
adjective-historically-derived-from-participle distinction would be a good
focus for much K-12 class time, though (I'm not that far gone. Honest).
--- Bill Spruiell
On 11/9/11 10:33 AM, "Scott Catledge" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>I would not say that "exciting was an adjective made out of a verb but a
>present participle used as an adjective--a concept that I taught early on.
>When I stated that any word could be used as a noun, I was challenged by a
>student who said, "'The' can't be used as a noun." I then asked her to
>diagram
>her statement. When she did, the class saw that "The" was a subject. I
>then
>asked if "The" was used as a pronoun: they replied almost in unison, "No,
>it's
>used as a noun. The young lady just shook her head and said, "'The'
>can't
>be
>no noun!" I stated that she was quite right that 'the' could not be a
>noun;
>it
>could, however, be used as a noun--as we clearly saw from the diagram. I
>never did convince her and, on the final exam, a similar response took her
>exam grade from a C to a D=--lowering her final average from a C to a C-.
>She complained; however, we had few, if any, options at that time on
>determining final grades.
>
>Scott Catledge
>--------------------------------------------------
>From: "ATEG automatic digest system" <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 12:03 AM
>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: ATEG Digest - 29 Oct 2011 to 8 Nov 2011 (#2011-194)
>
>> There are 5 messages totalling 620 lines in this issue.
>>
>> Topics of the day:
>>
>> 1. grammar question--verb v. participle (5)
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 09:59:33 -0800
>> From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: grammar question--verb v. participle
>>
>> --1938299484-559104384-1320775173=:20532
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>
>> Dear List,
>>
>> How would you describe "exciting" in the following sentence?
>>
>> <What had been exciting gave her a feeling of dazed helplessness.>
>>
>> How would you explain your reasoning to 7th graders?
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Scott Woods
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> --1938299484-559104384-1320775173=:20532
>> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
>>
>> <html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff;
>> font-family:times new roman, new york, times,
>> serif;font-size:12pt"><div>Dear List,</div><div><br></div><div>How
>>would
>> you describe "exciting" in the following
>> sentence?</div><div><br></div><div><What had been exciting gave her
>>a
>> feeling of dazed helplessness.></div><div><br></div><div>How would
>>you
>> explain your reasoning to 7th
>>
>>graders?<br></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div><br></div><div>Sc
>>ott
>> Woods<br></div></div></body></html>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>> <p>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>> --1938299484-559104384-1320775173=:20532--
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 19:49:32 +0000
>> From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: grammar question--verb v. participle
>>
>> Scott --
>>
>> I'd say it was an adjective, of the type that's made out of a verb (if
>>the
>> =
>> class has talked in some way about participles, with or without the
>>term
>> ac=
>> tually being used). You can put "very" in front of it easily, which
>> support=
>> s the idea that it's an adjective or adverb, and you can rule out
>>adverb
>> fa=
>> irly easily too (it's not movable, you should be able to say
>>"excitingly"
>> t=
>> here if it were an adverb, etc.). If the class hasn't talked about verb
>> for=
>> ms being used as adjectives, maybe this would be a good place to bring
>>it
>> u=
>> p. You can nudge the word verbwards by adding something interpretable
>>only
>> =
>> as an object: "What had been exciting everyone now just made them
>> confused"=
>> (but then the "very" test bombs).
>>
>> If you're talking about grammatical role, it's a subject complement
>>inside
>> =
>> a wh-clause acting as subject=85 but I was guessing that seventh grade
>> prob=
>> ably hasn't focused much on nominal clauses and embedding.
>>
>> --- Bill Spruiell
>>
>> From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>> Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar
>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:ATEG@LISTSE=
>> RV.MUOHIO.EDU>>
>> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 09:59:33 -0800
>> To: ATEG English Grammar
>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
>> HIO.EDU>>
>> Subject: grammar question--verb v. participle
>>
>> Dear List,
>>
>> How would you describe "exciting" in the following sentence?
>>
>> <What had been exciting gave her a feeling of dazed helplessness.>
>>
>> How would you explain your reasoning to 7th graders?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Scott Woods
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>interface
>> =
>> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
>> leave=
>> the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 19:54:59 +0000
>> From: "Myers, Marshall" <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: grammar question--verb v. participle
>>
>> Scott,
>>
>> I concur with Bill.
>>
>> "Interesting" and "boring" are also seen as "exciting" is.
>>
>> Marshall
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]
>> OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 2:50 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: grammar question--verb v. participle
>>
>> Scott --
>>
>> I'd say it was an adjective, of the type that's made out of a verb (if
>>the
>> =
>> class has talked in some way about participles, with or without the
>>term
>> ac=
>> tually being used). You can put "very" in front of it easily, which
>> support=
>> s the idea that it's an adjective or adverb, and you can rule out
>>adverb
>> fa=
>> irly easily too (it's not movable, you should be able to say
>>"excitingly"
>> t=
>> here if it were an adverb, etc.). If the class hasn't talked about verb
>> for=
>> ms being used as adjectives, maybe this would be a good place to bring
>>it
>> u=
>> p. You can nudge the word verbwards by adding something interpretable
>>only
>> =
>> as an object: "What had been exciting everyone now just made them
>> confused"=
>> (but then the "very" test bombs).
>>
>> If you're talking about grammatical role, it's a subject complement
>>inside
>> =
>> a wh-clause acting as subject... but I was guessing that seventh grade
>> prob=
>> ably hasn't focused much on nominal clauses and embedding.
>>
>> --- Bill Spruiell
>>
>> From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>> Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar
>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:ATEG@LISTSE=
>> RV.MUOHIO.EDU>>
>> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 09:59:33 -0800
>> To: ATEG English Grammar
>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
>> HIO.EDU>>
>> Subject: grammar question--verb v. participle
>>
>> Dear List,
>>
>> How would you describe "exciting" in the following sentence?
>>
>> <What had been exciting gave her a feeling of dazed helplessness.>
>>
>> How would you explain your reasoning to 7th graders?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Scott Woods
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>interface
>> =
>> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
>> leave=
>> the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>interface
>> =
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 15:54:40 -0500
>> From: MARTHA KOLLN <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: grammar question--verb v. participle
>>
>> --=-5Be6YINi0jrOI42vD6hO
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>
>> Another adjective test besides "very": "more exciting.
>>
>> Martha
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 02:54 PM, "Myers, Marshall"
>><[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>> Scott,
>>>
>>>I concur with Bill.
>>>
>>>"Interesting" and "boring" are also seen as
>>>"exciting" is.
>>>
>>>Marshall
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
>>>Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 2:50 PM
>>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>>Subject: Re: grammar question--verb v. participle
>>>
>>>Scott --
>>>
>>>I'd say it was an adjective, of the type that's made out of a verb (if
>>>the
>>>class has talked in some way about participles, with or without the term
>>>actually being used). You can put "very" in front of it easily,
>>>which supports the idea that it's an adjective or adverb, and you can
>>>rule
>>>out
>>>adverb fairly easily too (it's not movable, you should be able to say
>>>"excitingly" there if it were an adverb, etc.). If the class
>>>hasn't talked about verb forms being used as adjectives, maybe this
>>>would
>>>be a
>>>good place to bring it up. You can nudge the word verbwards by adding
>>>something
>>>interpretable only as an object: "What had been exciting everyone now
>>>just
>>>made them confused" (but then the "very" test bombs).
>>>
>>>If you're talking about grammatical role, it's a subject complement
>>>inside
>>>a
>>>wh-clause acting as subject... but I was guessing that seventh grade
>>>probably
>>>hasn't focused much on nominal clauses and embedding.
>>>
>>>--- Bill Spruiell
>>>
>>>From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>>Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar
>>><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 09:59:33 -0800
>>>To: ATEG English Grammar
>>><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>>Subject: grammar question--verb v. participle
>>>
>>>Dear List,
>>>
>>>How would you describe "exciting" in the following sentence?
>>>
>>><What had been exciting gave her a feeling of dazed helplessness.>
>>>
>>>How would you explain your reasoning to 7th graders?
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>
>>>Scott Woods
>>>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>interface
>>>at:
>>>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
>>>the list"
>>>
>>>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>interface
>>>at:
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
>>>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>interface
>>>at:
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
>>>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Martha Kolln
>>
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> --=-5Be6YINi0jrOI42vD6hO
>> Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
>>
>> <div>Another adjective test besides "very": "more
>> exciting.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Martha<br><br>On Tue,
>> Nov 8,
>> 2011 02:54 PM, <b>"Myers, Marshall" <[log in to unmask]></b>
>> wrote:<br><blockquote id="quoted_response" style="padding-left: 3px;
>> padding-right: 0px; margin-left: 3px; margin-right: 0px; border-left:
>>1px
>> solid
>> #000;">
>> <pre>
>> Scott,
>>
>> I concur with Bill.
>>
>> "Interesting" and "boring" are also seen as
>> "exciting" is.
>>
>> Marshall
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 2:50 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: grammar question--verb v. participle
>>
>> Scott --
>>
>> I'd say it was an adjective, of the type that's made out of a verb (if
>>the
>> class has talked in some way about participles, with or without the term
>> actually being used). You can put "very" in front of it easily,
>> which supports the idea that it's an adjective or adverb, and you can
>>rule
>> out
>> adverb fairly easily too (it's not movable, you should be able to say
>> "excitingly" there if it were an adverb, etc.). If the class
>> hasn't talked about verb forms being used as adjectives, maybe this
>>would
>> be a
>> good place to bring it up. You can nudge the word verbwards by adding
>> something
>> interpretable only as an object: "What had been exciting everyone now
>>just
>> made them confused" (but then the "very" test bombs).
>>
>> If you're talking about grammatical role, it's a subject complement
>>inside
>> a
>> wh-clause acting as subject... but I was guessing that seventh grade
>> probably
>> hasn't focused much on nominal clauses and embedding.
>>
>> --- Bill Spruiell
>>
>> From: Scott Woods
>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar
>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 09:59:33 -0800
>> To: ATEG English Grammar
>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: grammar question--verb v. participle
>>
>> Dear List,
>>
>> How would you describe "exciting" in the following sentence?
>>
>> <What had been exciting gave her a feeling of dazed helplessness.>
>>
>> How would you explain your reasoning to 7th graders?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Scott Woods
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
>> the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>> </pre></blockquote>Martha Kolln<br><br><br></div>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>> <p>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> --=-5Be6YINi0jrOI42vD6hO--
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 21:57:12 +0000
>> From: "Myers, Marshall" <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: grammar question--verb v. participle
>>
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>>
>> --_000_E6446B90F8DEEC4FB965A2BCC9E704CC18A37D6Bfsmail1facultys_--
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> End of ATEG Digest - 29 Oct 2011 to 8 Nov 2011 (#2011-194)
>> **********************************************************
>>
>
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