Carol,
Even worse, from the posts I read I have a feeling that those who will lead this nation back into the Ape Age will be its English language educators and especially some people who post in this "Assembly" forum. English language educators removed grammar from public schools, and probably the very same people will lead the United States back into the Illiteracy Age.
Eduasrd
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carol Morrison" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 12:24:51 PM
Subject: Re: The "Anti-Grammar Forum"
Eduard: I agree with you in many respects. I see a not too distant future where people will simply grunt, moan, or pound rocks together to communicate and it will no longer be fashionable to use words. There will be large gaps on the page where punctuation marks once existed, so readers can leave it to their own devices to decide which mark works best for them. The beauty of the English language will only be found in great volumes of antiquity, left to crumble in the attics of old English teachers and literature enthusiasts. It is very sad to me as well.
Carol
--- On Wed, 9/21/11, Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The "Anti-Grammar Forum"
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wednesday, September 21, 2011, 7:20 AM
"Formal Written English as one variety among many others, a variety not intrinsically better or worse than any other, although actually less useful than many since the situations that require it are relatively few."
So, now Standard/Formal English is "not intrinsically better or worse than any other [English Language varieties]." What is then, the purpose of teaching it in public schoools or in college? Why bother? Why not let the students speak and write in their own "variety"? Why waste so much money to pay English teachers and English instructors to teach students this "not intrinsically better or worse than any other" Standard/Formal English variety? Why not hire people from the street to teach students in the public school and college their own "variety" of English? It does not matter, anyway, if those who teach English in public schools or college have been trained to teach "correct" or "prescriptive" English! Who cares about this Formal/Standard English and who needs it?
From the content of the messages and comments posted in this forum it might seem appropriate to rename group who call themselves the "Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar" to "The Anti-Grammar Assembly/Forum." It is no wonder that this "Assembly" has had very little or no impact on the English Language education in the United States. If those who are supposed to uphold Standard/Formal English teaching speak against it and discourage its teaching as often as they have the opportunity to do so, then what should we expect from those who are convinced that teaching grammar could "harm" or "damage" the students?
Sad, very sad!
Eduard
From: "Stephen King" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 4:20:52 PM
Subject: Re: 'Bad' English
I find it useful to use rhetorical principles to judge the appropriateness of any given language variety; that is, is the variety appropriate given the audience, venue, message and speaker intentions? in the writing classroom, this allows me to discuss Formal Written English as one variety among many others, a variety not intrinsically better or worse than any other, although actually less useful than many since the situations that require it are relatively few. Of course, if one hopes to succeed in college and do well in a number of professions, it is a dialect one should have in one's linguistic repertoire. Thus, I have a way of explaining its importance without devaluing the several varieties of spoken English I encounter in the community college classroom.
The short form: language use is bad or good depending on the rhetorical situation in which it's used.
On Sep 20, 2011, at 11:45 AM, John Dews-Alexander wrote:
Yes. I know that many people who have "grammar pet peeves" are well-meaning (I'm a descriptivism at heart but even I have some of these language peeves) and would balk at the thought that they are being offensive rather than nurturing. However, we all forget from time to time that language and identity are inextricably tangled; insult the way I talk might as well be insult me. We, as language education professionals, can talk about language standards objectively and even clinically; however, the average person might even hear "standard" as carying negative implications. We just need to take care; our words might be soft and fuzzy but still might be hard and sharp to someone on the other end whose identity is threatened.
This is a passage from Carl Lefevre's Linguistics, English, and the Language Arts (1970):
"Sooner or later most of us do learn to speak several variants of English by adapting to the varied persons and situations we encounter in life, and according to changing motivations, self-images, and goals. But a prestige dialect, treated prescriptively (that is, snobbishly or sadistically), is 'superior' to every other ('inferior') dialect: that is the point of a prestige dialect. This constraint applies to the non-standard dialect spoken by many a white Anglo-Saxon Protestant child in suburbia just as it does to the speech of the slum child deep in the inner-city ghetto; the difference is one of degree. As a segregating device, shibboleth is very ancient, and as hateful as Cain."
I believe there is a fine line between teaching a standard in the classroom and propagating what Levefre calls "shibboleth" in the classroom. Grammar pet peeves, things that drive us "batty," might ultimately be considered judgments on one's intellect, upbringing, and so forth -- one's identity. Often though we just cringe because these peeves are dissonant to our ear. We're not being meanies; we're just hoping that others have a shared experience and can relate to our sense of dissonance.
I wouldn't want anyone to feel like they can't talk about grammar pet peeves on this list for fear of being considered a judgmental elitist. But this is a place where I think the conversation will focus on why a pet peeve exists, how the variant formed, how it functions differently from the standard, what contributes to its usage, etc. So statements that seem like linguistic prejudice, one of the last acceptable forms of prejudice even in professional circles, can be dangerous on this list and even more so in the classroom. (Erin, I hope you won't feel singled out -- your anecdote was really just a springboard for the larger point.)
John
On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 10:57 AM, R. Michael Medley (ck) < [log in to unmask] > wrote:
I think the Dick Veit has made a valid assessment of Trask's main point.
Veit: "I doubt Trask is limiting "normal English grammar" to formal
written English. I would say that #4,5, 7, 8, and 9 are already "normal"
in the sense that they would not strike most speakers as odd when heard in
a conversation."
And although I don't like #3 either, it is extremely common, and I have
even heard it in formal academic (oral) presentations. I think the
appearance of the nominative form of pronouns in a compound object
construction like this
I take special exception to the example presented by Erin Karl:
"Maybe Trask thinks this might be accepted someday, too?
Old woman: 'If I knowed I coulda rid, I woulda went, but had I went, I
couldn'tna et nuthin'. But if I'd knowed you'da wanted me to came, I
woulda went anyhow.'"
I accept this language because I accept the humanity of the speaker. It
is not the way I speak--but why does everyone have to speak as I do? It is
not the language of formal written English prose, but it is perfectly
acceptable language for this woman. People are entitled to their own
language. They are the owners of their mother tongue--the language in
which they were nurtured, in which they live and breathe. What I don't
accept is the practice of insinuating ridicule by giving examples like
these. English teachers have practiced this form of bullying for too
long. When we have ceased finding it acceptable to make fun of people for
being Jewish or Black or Latino or LGBT, or anything else, why do we still
think it's acceptable to ridicule (or humiliate) people for the regional
or social variety of language that they speak?
R. Michael Medley, Ph.D.
Professor of English
Eastern Mennonite University
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