>Michael,
My apologies if I made you feel in trouble. It was a thoughtful post,
and I thought highly enough of it to invite more development.
Welcome to the talk.
Craig
Morning everyone
>
> I might have predicted that my very first ATEG post would get me into
> trouble. So cool to find some colleagues who actually care about such
> things!
>
> Unfortunately, Dick, I cannot yet cite an authority for you. Indeed two
> of my own favorite authorities, Foerster & Steadman, in Writing and
> Thinking, suggest that my usage is appropriate "only in informal,
> colloquial discourse" though they seem to waver on that principle
> elsewhere in W&T. F&S call this sentence, "He, as well as his friends,
> was present" right but awkward. I suspect they'd use the same
> classification for the S&W sentence. Though without those commas, it
> strikes me that "as well as" means simply "and."
>
> I'll forward the question to one of my teachers, Lynn Troyka. Maybe we
> can get some consensus from her.
>
> BTW, Craig, I offered up "objective" a bit prematurely. I'm still
> working out that theory, but I'll get back to you.
>
> Michael
>
>
> -------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>:
> --------------
>
>
> Michael,
>
> You are saying that you disagree with Strunk and White (quoted by Carol
> below). Are there equivalent authorities you can cite? I am not saying
> “authorities” are ipso facto right (for example, you can still find
> textbooks that pronounce it ungrammatical to end a sentence with a
> preposition), but in matters like this there is often an agreed upon
> consensus.
>
> Dick
>
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael Keith Pen Ultimate
> Rare Books
> Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 11:30 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
>
> Dick et al
>
> Ask yourself why "his speech as well as his manners is objectionable"
> doesn't sound right. In that sentence I suspect that "as well as his
> manners" serves as a delayed, emphatic additional subject--something akin
> to: also especially his manners!--and is therefore and thereby plural.
> Remember, if the subject is plural, the verb should be as well. Many
> subjects succeeded by "as well as" are intended indeed to be singular.
> The subject/example you provided, in most contexts, emphatically is NOT.
> Grammar, like language and concepts, is contextual and objective.
>
> Michael
> -------------- Original message from "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>:
> --------------
> Thanks, Carol. That is most helpful. Is it is. I knew that intellectually
> but wish it sounded right too. For example, change “manner” to “manners”
> in the Strunk and White example and it doesn’t seem as clear cut: "His
> speech as well as his manners is objectionable."
>
> Dick Veit
>
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
> Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 4:11 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: a subject-verb-agreement question
>
> According to Strunk and White in The Elements of Style, "[a] singular
> subject remains singular even if other nouns are connected to it by with,
> as well as, in addition to, except, together with, and no less than (21).
> So I believe that your last example would take the verb "is". Strunk and
> White give the following example: "His speech as well as his manner is
> objectionable" (21).
> I'm not sure if the comma between "society at large" and "as well as"
> changes that in your sentence though.
>
> --- On Sun, 6/15/08, Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> From: Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: a subject-verb-agreement question
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 3:32 PM
> A little help, please, with subject/verb agreement in a sentence. These I
> have no trouble with:
>
> Good policy will come when society at large is educated about HPV.
> Good policy will come when at-risk individuals are educated about HPV.
> Good policy will come when society at large and at-risk individuals are
> educated about HPV.
>
> And pretty sure about this:
>
> Good policy will come when society at large (not just at-risk individuals)
> is educated about HPV.
>
> But what about this one?
>
> Good policy will come when society at large, as well as at-risk
> individuals, is/are educated about HPV.
>
> Do the commas make the second phrase an aside so that the verb should
> agree with “society” only (i.e., “is”)? Or do we treat “as well as” as
> equivalent to “and,” making “are” the right choice? I seek your informed
> guidance on the matter. Any specific reference to authority is especially
> welcome.
>
> Dick
> ________________________________
> Richard Veit
> Department of English
> University of North Carolina Wilmington
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV
> list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
> the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
|
