Well, maybe that's the problem. I'm not as well-versed in this aspect
of syntax as you and Bruce are, so this particular point is not
really hitting home with that satisfying clink of comprehension and
insight one so likes to have.
Here is the larger context that Bruce asked for --
1. System admin creates role
2. System admin sets role permissions
3. Developer requests to assume role
4. [ProductX] returns role session credentials
5. Developer updates /app folder using role credentials
These terms all have specific technical meanings, of course. Which is
why it must be "requests" (and not "asks," for example), and it must
be "assume." The developer is actually calling a function called
"AssumeRole."
I'm not seeing the confusion between "developer requests" (NP + V)
and "developer requests" (NP) that you and Bruce are talking about --
I mean, I see that it could be either, but in this context, I'm not
seeing that the meaning shifts back and forth between the two.
For me, if this item could be recast as "Developer sends request to
assume role," the awkwardness melts away. Of course, this change also
changes the verb structure, doing away with the construction that
both of you are commenting on. So maybe that's it after all. It's
interesting too that "has requested to" (which, as you say, calls out
the fact that this is a verb phrase) in place of "requests" also
smooths away that clunky feel.
So maybe you two have nailed it.
Odile
At 4:21 PM +0000 9/13/12, Hancock, Craig G wrote:
>If "requests" is potentially a noun, as Bruce suggests, then an
>auxiliary would smooth it out: "The developer has requested to
>assume the role." That works for me. "The developer asks to assume
>the role" would be the most common. "Developers' requests to assume
>the role" would be common for noun phrases since "ask" isn't used in
>a noun role. To use the word choice common for noun phrases in a
>place where a clause is being constructed perhaps sets off
>interference. Putting the auxiliary in front of it would clue us in
>that "requests" is verb, not noun, and smooth that over.
>
>Craig
>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Odile Sullivan-Tarazi
>Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 11:00 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Unidiomatic construction?
>
>
>Bruce,
>
>Hmm, I'd not thought of that: that the singular "role" might also
>contribute to the strangeness of the construction. This question
>began as someone else's, and so I do not have those other callouts.
>I can get them though.
>
>I thought at first the problem might be that "request" really needed
>a NP object, which someone else has suggested to me off-list. But
>AHD4 offers "requested to see the evidence firsthand" as an example
>of the use of the verb, and "requested to see" sounds perfectly
>natural. Why is "requests to see" idiomatic and "requests to assume"
>odd? Is it the collision of the how we use "request" with how we
>understand "assume"?
>
>With respect to your analysis of "role," even were we to expand the
>telegraphic original, and render "role" plural instead, isn't the
>result still unsatisfactory in some fundamental way? --
>
> The developer requests to assume the roles.
>
>And why is it that if we change the construction, so that "request"
>is no longer the verb, the noise vanishes? --
>
> The developer sends a request to assume the role.
>
>Somehow "a request to assume the role" works (okay, it's not
>wonderful, but it works), while "requests to assume the role" does
>not.
>
>I'm so baffled by this . . .
>
>
>Odile
>
>
>
>
>At 6:32 AM -0700 9/13/12, Bruce Despain wrote:
>
>Odile,
>Can you give some of the others in the series, some that read fine,
>to compare with?
>
>Your suggestion that "requests" is the origin, seems plausible: the
>primrose path is that the word is a derived noun in the plural with
>developer serving as the subject of the underlying verb. This would
>then be a NP title heading: the requests that developers make to
>assume role(s). It is not until the final s is found lacking that
>the interpreter is obliged to back up and try again, or admit that
>many requests may have the same role in common. In either case the
>situation described is unfamiliar and the first NP is tried again,
>this time with requests as a verb.
>Bruce
>
>--- <mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask] wrote:
>
>From: Odile Sullivan-Tarazi
><<mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]>
>To: <mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]
>Subject: Unidiomatic construction?
>Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:27:51 -0700
>
>The following callout is one of a series (all telegraphic style) that
>describe the actions depicted in a complex figure --
>
> Developer requests to assume role
>
>The sentence is perfectly parallel with the others, all of which read
>fine. This one alone seems awkward. In fact, to my ears, it does not
>sound idiomatic.
>
>Why?
>
>Has it something to do with restrictions on the way in which we use
>either "request" or "assume"? Restrictions which we may not
>consciously recognize as native speakers, but which we abide by
>nonetheless? I don't think it's a structural thing. Or am I missing
>something on that score?
>
>I can't puzzle it out. I'm hoping someone here can enlighten me.
>
>Thanks!
>
>
>Odile
>
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