Thanks Ron,
 
I taught ESL from 2000-2005 and I only had one francophone for a very short time. My French connection is that I spent my junior year of college in Lyon through the University of North Carolina. Now I teach all subjects to at risk youth at a wilderness camp. 
 
We have so many phrasal verbs in English. It just strikes me as odd that they are not found in other languages. Can you give me a sentence with the Canadian French use of venir with back? --Christine Reintjes [log in to unmask]


Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 21:41:16 -0700From: [log in to unmask]: Re: Reasons for teaching PVs in the ESL context.To: [log in to unmask]



Hi Christine,
 
I am not aware of any.   No, French does not have any.  One does, however, find some forms of French in Canada, particularly New Brunswick, which combine a French verb such as 'venir' with 'back'.
 
Do you teach ESL to francophones?   If so where?   And if so, how do you handle faux amis?
 
Bye, Ron.
.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Christine Reintjes 
To: [log in to unmask] 
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: Reasons for teaching PVs in the ESL context.
Ron, Are there any other languages besides English that have phrasal verbs? Is it possible that French has one or a few? I'm trying to think of one, but I'm realizing they are all prepositional verbs. --Christine Reintjes [log in to unmask]> Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 02:57:44 -0700> From: [log in to unmask]> Subject: Reasons for teaching PVs in the ESL context.> To: [log in to unmask]> > Herb,> > My problem with your calling 'look after' (and subsequently 'look at') a> transitive verb creates a serious problem in terms of how I have taught> phrasal verbs for many years.> > In ESL terms, there are four purposes in teaching about phrasal verbs.> > First, in the case of francophones (and most ESL learners), they have to be> encouraged to use phrasal verbs as much as possible and this, because> phrasal verbs constitute the essence of English colloguial speech and are> not present in their own language.> > Second, they need to understand the amazing productivity of phrasal verbs in> creating new figurative meanings which they need to be encouraged to add to> their vocab.> > Third, they have to become used to thinking of phrasal verbs as verbs plus> adverbial particles, and this, because their own languages do not have> phrasal verbs (though they do have prepositional verbs). Consequently, they> demonstrate a tendency to use verbs without the particle. I remember a> (highly fluent speaker of English) French colleague telling me to 'pick a> book' I had dropped. Similarly, last week, an Indian lady here in Dubai who> had spoken English from a very early age, told me that she would 'pick her> son at 7 o'clock'. Thus, in both cases, 'up' was omitted.> > Fourth, (and most importantly in the context of the present discussion), we> have to teach ESL students to distinguish between transitive phrasal verbs> and prepositional verbs in order that they understand (and learn to produce)> why they can say both 'He looked up the word' and 'He looked the word up'> but cannot do the same with 'look at' and other prepostional verbs.> > It is for this reason, Herb, that I would prefer NOT to teach ESL students> that verbs such as 'look after' are transitive verbs. It makes far more> sense pedagogically to treat 'his mother' in 'He looked after his mother'> as the object of the preposition and not of the verb.> > Ron Sheen> > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>> To: <[log in to unmask]>> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 9:40 AM> Subject: Re: Those old transitivity blues was Help for a puzzled teacher> > > Ron,> > I think your ESL pedagogy is sound. We really don't disagree on that or> on what makes for useful and effective practice, and what doesn't. I'm> not sure I see what you're getting at, though, with your contrast of> "look after" and "look at". From the perspective of grammatical> analysis I'd call them both (mono)transitive prepositional verbs,> capture the fact that the preposition has become lexically bound to the> verb. Consider, for example, how "look at" has become "lookit" in> informal speech. But ESL students don't need this level of> differentiation and can do quite well considering "look" intransitive> and the prepositional phrase adverbial. Different goals.> > Herb> > > Well, that's all very well, Herb, but it doesn't really answer my> question> which was 'If you consider 'look after' as a monotransitive> prepositional> verb, what do you consider 'look at' to be, and if you differentiate> them> how do you do so in an ESL class?> > In my view, again in an ESL class, one should consider neither to be> transitive, sticking to the assumption that the following nouns are> objects> of the prepositions.> > Again, as I think we understand, we are concerned here with pedagogical> clarity and not accurate sophisticated linguistic analysis.> > As to the old chestnut of grammatical drills, I do not know what you> understand them to be, Herb. but my understanding of them entails the> repetition of forms without having to think about them. As such, I> would> not have them within ten miles of my classroom. All controlled practice> > should require some form of reflection on an underlying rule even though> it> might be instantaneous.> > As an example of identifying phrasal verbs and particle movement after a> > period of instruction, I would organise a class for pair work in the> following way. Each pair is named A and B. B receives a sheet on> which> there are listed examples of sentences which contain a variety of> sentences> some of which contain both transitive phrasal verbs and prepositional> verbs.> The sheet also contains the answers so that B can act as 'teacher'.> The> instructions are as follows:> > Listen to the example. If you think there is a phasal verb in the> sentence, move the particle appropriately and say the modified sentence.> If> you think that the verb is a prepositional verb, simply say so.> > B reads an example such as> > The man put on his hat.> > Students answers: The man put his hat on.> > B says 'Correct'.> > If A says, Prepositional verb, B tries to get him to think about his> answer> and correct it.> > I developed this technique many years ago and have used it very> frequently> with all levels. I have found that the students like it and quickly> develop> their own teachniques to prompt their fellow students into changing> their> incorrect answers for correct ones.> > Further, this to me underlies what I condier to be an important> principle of> successful pair work. That is that one of the pair needs to be able to> > provide the correct answer.> > Ron Sheen> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and select "Join or leave the list"> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

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