If you don't stop acting like this, I'm going to have to separate you
two!  Gram, please do stop being so "snotty." Brad, please do go take a
grammar class, or else get a book and study it on your own. Eats Shoots
and Leaves is actually enjoyable to read. Play nice, please!




Barbara McLay, M.A. 
Instructor, Student Learning Services 
SVC 2124 
University of South Florida 
Tampa, FL 33620-6970 
Phone:  (813) 974-9303 
Fax: (813) 974-5089 
Webpage: www.usf.edu/reading 


________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Gram Marian
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 12:25 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Brad's written threats


If I'm not mistaken, your last statement constitutes a threat. That sort
of thing is not normally tolerated on listservs. You've just been
offically upgraded from "lunatic" status to "volatile and potentially
dangerous psychopath." Congratulations.

Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]> wrote: 

	   %
	 
	(  16  )  They are amazed. They never heard of this song.
	(  82  )  They are amazed. They have never heard of this song.
	(   6   )  They were amazed. They never heard of this song.
	(  93  )  They were amazed. They had never heard of this song.
	 
	(  45  )  John is upset because his application was turned down.
	(  55  )  John is upset because his application has been turned
down.
	(  37  )  John was upset because his application was turned
down.
	(  64  )  John was upset because his application had been turned
down.
	 
	Brad's conclusions:
	 
	1.)  Damned interesting because of the diversity of answers to
uncomplicated examples. They are short, unambiguous, and probably
constitute the simplest quiz any of us have seen since the 4th grade,
yet look at how much disagreement there is among professional
grammarians, including this morning's complaint from Herb. 
	 
	2.)  Look at the four sentences about John. We are 45-55 and
37-64. With that much disagreement among professionals, is it any wonder
that students are confused? I think we need to consider carefully what
this demonstrates.
	 
	3.)  In the set on top, the 82 will want to explain to the 16
why the straightforward "they never heard" is less effective than to
say, "they have never heard". I need to know, too.
	 
	4.)  You wouldn't let me continue long enough to get definition
on what is demonstrated next. The 82 (with the help of 11 of the 16)
jumped to the conclusion that the past perfect is the past of the
present perfect. It can be demonstrated why this is not true but we have
all heard it so often that we just feel in our bones that 'had' belongs
in front of "never heard".
	 
	5.)  The same can be said of John 55 going for John 64. Once
they decided that his application "has been turned down" instead of the
straightforward "was turned down", it is an easy leap to John 64 (with
the help of 9 from John 45) to say ... well, you see what it says in
John 64.
	 
	6.)  Convoluted theories and arcane presumptions aside, 45 and
37 have it right: "is and was" and "was and was" don't need any help.
They work well just as they are.
	 
	7.)  So, 82 and 55, please tell us why you want to use the
present perfect. Then tell us why you jumped to 93 and 64. Just because
it sounds right? Stand on any street corner and listen. That's what
you'll hear. (Is that too tough? O.K., strike that last comment starting
with "Stand on any corner". I withdraw that, without prejudice I hope.)
	 
	8.)  Back to you. I'm going to ponder #8 for a time.
	 
	.brad.14feb08.
	 
	Hey, Gram, is this interesting and constructive enough for you?
You better duck because rocks and bottles are going to be flying, some
of them at you, just for being so snotty.
	 
	This list is a forum for people who are actually interested in
learning about grammar and language, not a dumping site for the ravings
of an apparent lunatic.
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