Bruce and Craig:
The analogy with "mightily" was one I thought was useful, but it may have skewed my interpretation manner-wards. One kind of "extent" would involve words like "partially" or "completely," while "mightily" strikes me as having a manner-y element to it. I can try to weasel out of the problem by arguing "his best" is a *gradable* manner, but I have no idea how I'd pin that down via co-occurrence patterns (is it an extentful manner, or a mannerish extent?). There are probably some dissertations on this somewhere, and the fact that I have a whajillion papers to grade is rendering the entire question fascinating....
Bill Spruiell
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Craig Hancock
Sent: Sun 5/3/2009 1:55 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: New Sentence
Bruce,
Nice point. A parallel might be "all his might", probalby shortened
down from "with all his might." "He tried all his might to express
what love meant to him."
Craig>
I would also think that the "his best" phrase is adverbial. My take is
> that it is not telling us "how" in the sense of the "-ly" of a manner
> adverb, but "how much" in the sense of an adverb of extent. It was early
> pointed out that "to the best of their abilities" might serve as a
> possible paraphrase telling "to what extent." Sometimes a verb can seem
> to take an extent as a direct object: "He ran three miles,." but I think
> this is really better seen as a degree adverb modifying an adverb of
> extent that is understood: "He ran three miles (far)." Perhaps we can
> compare this to, "He tried his best (try)." (Cf. "He fought a good
> fight.") This makes it an averb of extent modifying an understood noun of
> action. (The analysis of adverbial nouns seems to get so convoluted.)
>
> Bruce
> ________________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 7:50 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: New Sentence
>
> Bill,
> I think "mightily" works in sentence opening position if you intone (or
> puncutate) it properly. this is even clearer if it's intensified.
>
> "Mightily, artists have tried to express what love means to them."
>
> "Oh so mightily, artists have tried to express what love means to them."
>
> The movability awkwardness with "their best" might just come from the fact
> that it has become a somewhat fixed construction. The following seems OK
> to me: "Their very very best, artists have tried to express what love
> means to them."
>
> Has anyone pointed out yet that "try" can be intransitive? "He tries
> hard." "He just doesn't try." "He tries on Tuesdays." "He tries
> Tuesdays." "He tries when he feels like it." In that pattern, "He tries
> his best" would still not give us "his best" as direct object. "What"
> he is trying to accomplish would be missing or--more
> likely--understood.
>
> I'm voting heavily for "his best" as adverbial and am not sure it would
> ever be direct object.
>
> Craig
> I may have just posted "dud" email by mistake right before this one , so
>> apologies for that -- I'm using a different front end program for email
>> than I'm used to. Here's what it was supposed to be:
>>
>> Martha, Dick, et al.,
>>
>> Just some potential support: I've tried substituting in "mightily" for
>> "their best" to see if the patterns are roughly the same, on the logic
>> that "mightily" is pretty clearly a manner adverb and its meaning is in
>> the same ballpark as "their best" in this context (I know, it's
>> colloquial, and similarity in meaning doesn't always entail similarity
>> in
>> structure, but still...):
>>
>> Artists have tried mightily to express what love means to them.
>> Artists have tried their best to express what love means to them.
>>
>> ?Artists have mightily tried to express what love means to them.
>> *Artists have their best tried to express what love means to them.
>>
>> *Mightly artists have tried to express what love means to them.
>> *Their best artists have tried to express what love means to them.
>> (sequence is possible but only with different meaning)
>>
>> *Artists have tried express what love means to them mightily.
>> *Artists have tried to express what love means to them their best.
>>
>> The only real problem for the manner adverb view, I think, is the
>> impossibility of having "their best" fall between the first aux (finite
>> marker) and the rest of the verbal group, but trying to put "mightily"
>> there produces some awkwardness as well -- it may be yet another example
>> of the "heavy material goes after the head" pattern, although some other
>> manner adverbs make that claim iffy.
>>
>> Bill Spruiell
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of MARTHA
>> KOLLN
>> Sent: Sat 5/2/2009 9:48 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: New Sentence
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, May 1, 2009 09:34 AM, Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>
>>>
>>>Beth, Dick, et al.,
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Sentences can get really tricky (and ambiguous) when idioms like "tried
>>> their
>> best" are involved. The first thing I questioned about the artist
>> sentence
>> was whether the infinitive phrase could be written with "in order,"
>> which
>> I
>> consider the first test for "adverbial":
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I drove fast [in order] to get home in time for the news.
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>The other test, as someone mentioned, is movability:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> To get home in time for the news, I drove fast.
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>When "try" is connected with an infinitive, that infinitive is nearly
>>> always a
>> direct object--a "something" or "someone":
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I tried to get home in time for the news. i.e., I tried
>>> "something."
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>In the artist sentence, it seems to me that the infinitive passes the
>> "something" test more clearly than the "in order to" test. It's true
>> that
>> "tried their best" is indeed a common expression, I think that "tried
>> very
>> hard" is what it means (an adverbial of degree), rather than "tried
>> something."
>>
>>
>>>
>>>For the infinitive phrase here to be adverbial--to pass either the "in
>>> order"
>> test or the movability test--the sentence would need a clear "something"
>> as
>> direct object:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Artists of all kinds have tried beauty and truth in all of its
>>> manifestations
>> [in order] to express what love means to them.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>This sentence works in the passive:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Beauty and truth in all of their manifestations have been tried by
>>> artists to
>> express what love means to them.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>While the original artist sentence, with its infinitive as direct
>>> object,
>> doesn't work in the passive, that doesn't mean it isn't transitive. Most
>> transitive verbs that take infinitives (want, like, expect, etc.) are
>> not
>> passive candidates either:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I want to take piano lessons.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I like to play the guitar.
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I expect to perform at Carnegie Hall.
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Verbs that take gerunds as direct objects could possibly be squeezed
>>> into
>>> a
>> passive, but it's not very comfortable:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> The audience enjoyed listening to the guitar
>>> music.
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> ?Listening to the guitar music was enjoyed by the
>>> audience. [I don't
>>> think
>> so!]
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>That's my take on those expressive artists.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Martha
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Beth,
>>>
>>>Good point. Our problem is that "tried my best" is an idiomatic phrase,
>>> which
>> limits internal analysis. All of these are possible:
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>I tried to succeed.
>>>I attempted to succeed.
>>>
>> I endeavored to succeed.
>>>
>>>
>> But "my best" only works with "tried":
>>>
>>>>I tried my best to succeed.
>>>* I attempted my best to succeed.
>>>* I endeavored my best to succeed.
>>>
>>>
>> Interestingly, it is also possible to use "tried my best" in a
>> different,
>> nonidiomatic way, where "my best" is the direct object:
>>>
>>>>First I tried a half-hearted effort, but it didn't work, so I tried my
>>>> best,
>> and that worked.
>>>
>>>
>> Unlike the other uses, here "my best" is what was tried, not how
>> something
>> was
>> tried.
>>>
>>>Dick
>>>
>>>>On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 8:40 AM, Beth Young <<#>> wrote:
>>>
>> Hi Dick,
>>>
>>>
>> Interesting! I find your reasoning very persuasive.
>>>
>>>
>> Still . . . "their best" isn't at all moveable. And there are lots of
>> examples of "x gave y their best," in which "their best" is a direct
>> object.
>>>
>>>
>> Could it be that our intuition about how fixed an entity "their best"
>> is?
>> i.e., if you think of "their best" as a discrete, identifiable effort,
>> like a
>> poem or a chocolate souffle, then the phrase seems nominal and "to
>> express
>> what
>> love means to them" seems adverbial. But if you think of "their best"
>> as
>> a
>> kind of move in a certain direction (like moving towards the
>> horizon--you
>> never
>> arrive), then "to express what love means to them" seems more nominal
>> and
>> "their best" more adverbial.
>>>
>>>
>> (I'm a bit boggled to hear myself proposing that the distinction between
>> nominal/adverbial can be ambiguous.)
>>>
>>>
>> Beth
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Dick Veit <<#>> 4/30/2009 6:40 PM >>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Beth,
>>>
>>>
>> Re: "Artists of all kinds have tried their best to express what love
>> means
>>>
>> to them."
>>>
>>>
>> The phrase "to express what love means to them" is certainly an
>> infinitive
>>>
>> phrase, but is it adverbial or nominal?
>>>
>>>
>> - I tried a poem to express my love.
>>>
>> This infinitive phrase is adverbial, indicating why I tried the
>>>
>> poem.
>>>
>> - I tried to express my love.
>>>
>> This infinitive phrase is nominal, the direct object of
>> "tried."
>>>
>>>
>> I opt for nominal in our sentence. I think "their best" is an adverbial,
>> not
>>>
>> the direct object, since it answers the question "Tried how?" rather
>> than
>>>
>> "Tried what?" On the other hand, "to express what love means to them"
>> can
>>>
>> answer the question "Tried what?" so I'd say it is the direct object.
>>>
>>>
>> Dick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Beth Young <<#>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "Artists of all kinds have tried their best to express what love
>>> means
>>> to
>>>
>>> them."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Here's my take: "to express what love means to them" is an adverbial
>>>
>>> infinitive phrase.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1. You can move it around: To express what love means to them, artists
>>> of
>>>
>>> all kinds have tried their best.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2. It answers the question "why" or "in what manner" the verb happens.
>>>
>>> Artists of all kinds have tried their best. Why? "to express what love
>>>
>>> means to them."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Without that adverbial infinitive phrase, it's easier to see that the
>>> main
>>>
>>> sentence is transitive: THEY have tried SOMETHING.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Their best" is a noun phrase/direct object. I don't have a problem
>>> with
>>>
>>> "best" functioning as a noun--contrast with "their happy" which clearly
>>>
>>> doesn't work.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To make the whole sentence passive would be clunky, but it is doable:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "To express what love means to them, their best has been tried (by
>>> artists
>>>
>>> of all kinds)."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This passive sentence is bothersome, not so much because of the passive
>>>
>>> voice, but because we don't know who "them" and "their" refers to until
>>> we
>>>
>>> get to the end. I could imagine writing this sort of passage:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Their best has been tried. (And it still wasn't good enough.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That's how I see it, anyway. Thanks for the distraction from paper
>>>
>>> grading.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Beth
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> Martha Kolln
>>
>>
>>
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