Although my doctoral dissertation in contrastive linguistics was on
discrepant subcategorization of nouns in Spanish and English,
not being a Chomskyite, my druthers would go with the grammarians--not my
fellow linguists. My only linguistics group is SIAD
(Société Internationale de Diachronie du Français). I have, however, heard
enough on the past perfect and delete any discussions
pertaining thereto.
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 19 Jul 2011 to 20 Jul 2011 (#2011-132)
There are 3 messages totalling 1190 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. How to deal with a crackpot (3)
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 15:58:13 +0300
From: M C Johnstone <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot
Larry,
I agree with you about dual sympathies and think that the ATEG list is
enriched by a variety of opinion. I understand what Brad is saying below
in All Gaul although I'm not sure what a group of prescriptivist
grammarians would have do to, other than prescribing, and I've heard
much more than anyone ever should hear about the past perfect.
If I had my druthers, I'd go with the linguists and their "arcane
tangents," but it needn't come to that. Brad can easily start a
prescriptive grammar list and invite participants. I have seen this done
on other lists in response to similar complaints.
Mark
On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 13:08 -0500, "Larry Beason" <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> I'd suggest we not split the list, esp since I think a number of us
> identify with both grammarians and linguists. Setting aside a portion of
> the list is in effect creating a new list within a list, and there are
> practical problems. For instance, as the overall ATEG list grows and
> changes, will newcomers know there are essentially two lists? How often
> does the list manager have to update and revise these sub-lists? I think
> it's a bit much to ask list managers to keep up with such matters. I
> might be missing something, but it seems to me it would be overreacting
> to some minor disputes.
>
> If someone wants to create a non-ATEG list devoted to grammar and
> linguistics--fine. I think a number of us would want to join that one
> also. But I for one see no reason to encourage creating various
> sub-groups that have far more in common than they have differences.
>
> I've spend most of my career in the shadow of a split between literature
> and composition/rhetoric faculty (if not a split between composition and
> rhetoric, for heaven's sake), and it seems to me the splitting of this
> list into grammarians vs linguists is not productive to either good
> discussions of language or to our scholarly and teaching community. I've
> grown tired of such false dichotomies, and I suspect I'm not alone.
>
> Larry
>
> ____________________________
> Larry Beason, Associate Professor
> Director of Composition
> University of South Alabama
> Mobile, AL 36688-0002
> Office: 251-460-7861
> FAX: 251-461-1517
>
>
> >>> "Dixon, Jack" <[log in to unmask]> 7/18/2011 12:42 PM >>>
> Excellent suggestion. Grammarians, communicate directly with the list
> manager.
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:47 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot
>
> If I am not mistaken, it is possible to direct messages directly to
> the keeper of the list. If there are grammarians among us who would
> like to see the list (or a portion of the list) set aside for
> grammarians only (as Brad would define it), without commentary from
> linguists, then perhaps they should communicate that directly to the
> list manager. If there are a large number among us who feel that way,
> then the list manager could let that be known, and we could take the
> suggestion seriously. If not, then let's continue as we have in the
> past.
>
> Craig
>
>
>
> On 7/18/2011 12:39 PM, Carole Hurlbut wrote:
> I would appreciate discussions to be respectful and positive. I delete
> some emails and may need to use a filter or block. Thanks to members who
> make positive choices in their responses. I appreciate it.
>
> Carole
>
> From: Brad Johnston<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:05 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot
>
> Note this, Geoffrey. See what I mean? There's nothing "crackpot" about
> "All Gaul is divided".
>
> Bully the chickens and they won't reply. They just won't. No one likes to
> be bullied as Dick Veit likes to [try to] bully me.
>
> (I changed email addresses because Internet Explorer is having problems
> that effect my old address. I now use Google Chrome and a new Yahoo
> address. Nothing evil or devious about it.)
>
> "exactly what he wants", b.t.w, is very clearly, and reasonably, stated
> in All Gaul is divided. Maybe, just maybe, the chickens don't want you in
> their hen house, Dick. If you ever ask them what they want, ask them if
> they want me in their hen house. If they (grammarians) don't, I will
> withdraw with considerably more good grace that you exhibit below.
>
> .brad.18july11.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:28 AM
> Subject: How to deal with a crackpot
> Why am I again getting mail from our resident crackpot, when I put a
> filter on my email account to block his messages?
>
> Answers:
> 1. He changed his email address (so I will now block the new one too).
> 2. Non-crackpots keep responding to his mail. At long last, can't people
> realize that it is exactly what he wants? Just stop responding to him, no
> matter what crazy things he says to provoke you.
>
> ~~~~~
>
> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 06:35:31 -0700
> From: Brad Johnston
> <[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: All Gaul is divided
> Regarding the possible division of the two main parts of ATEG, which I
> hope will be considered at the annual meeting, it seems to me that the
> goal of grammar is that we all might be on the same page, literally and
> figuratively, so that we might be better able to understand one another.
>
> Understanding one another doesn't depend on where words and conventions
> came from as much as what they mean. Linguists look at what people
> actually say and write, (and said and wrote), whereas grammarians try to
> agree on what makes sense to most of us most of the time. Linguists have
> different training, different interests, and different goals. They look
> at what divides us (descriptive grammar), while grammarians look for what
> joins us together (prescriptive grammar).
>
> When the linguists, who dominate the ATEG listserv, go off on one of
> their arcane tangents, the grammarians politely say to the linguists,
> "that's interesting", but it's rather like a corn farmer saying "that's
> interesting" to a cattle rancher who describes the particulars of raising
> Holsteins. What interests the linguists IS interesting, it just isn't
> what makes the grammar world go around.
>
> The demonstrable result is that the linguists tend to carry on their
> exotic discussions on this listserv and the grammarians tend to lurk in
> the shadows. I propose to you that there should be a way to better serve
> the grammarians, of whom there are thousands in this country, and who
> each have questions about the day-to-day of teaching grammar.
>
> The grammarians can go somewhere else, of course, and maybe they do, but
> since ATEG is the Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar, why is it
> not appropriate that ATEG concern itself with English Grammar and let the
> linguists go elsewhere and ponder, in a different venue, those things
> that interest them?
>
> br-had.sun.17july11.
> .
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
--
[log in to unmask]
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 08:31:46 -0700
From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot
--0-905509043-1311175906=:63679
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm not sure why nobody has said this on this thread yet, but not all =0Agr=
ammarians are prescriptivists. =0A=0A=0APaul D.=0A=A0"If this were play'd u=
pon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable =0Afiction" (_Twelfth =
Night_ 3.4.127-128). =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AF=
rom: M C Johnstone <[log in to unmask]>=0ATo: [log in to unmask]
t: Wed, July 20, 2011 8:58:13 AM=0ASubject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot=
=0A=0ALarry,=0A=0AI agree with you about dual sympathies and think that the=
ATEG list is=0Aenriched by a variety of opinion. I understand what Brad is=
saying below=0Ain All Gaul although I'm not sure what a group of prescript=
ivist=0Agrammarians would have do to, other than prescribing, and I've hear=
d=0Amuch more than anyone ever should hear about the past perfect.=0A=0AIf =
I had my druthers, I'd go with the linguists and their "arcane=0Atangents,"=
but it needn't come to that. Brad can easily start a=0Aprescriptive gramma=
r list and invite participants. I have seen this done=0Aon other lists in r=
esponse to similar complaints.=0A=0AMark=0A=0AOn Mon, 18 Jul 2011 13:08 -05=
00, "Larry Beason" <[log in to unmask]>=0Awrote:=0A> I'd suggest we not s=
plit the list, esp since I think a number of us=0A> identify with both gram=
marians and linguists.=A0 Setting aside a portion of=0A> the list is in eff=
ect creating a new list within a list, and there are=0A> practical problems=
.=A0 For instance, as the overall ATEG list grows and=0A> changes, will new=
comers know there are essentially two lists?=A0 How often=0A> does the list=
manager have to update and revise these sub-lists?=A0 I think=0A> it's a b=
it much to ask list managers to keep up with such matters.=A0 I=0A> might b=
e missing something, but it seems to me it would be overreacting=0A> to som=
e minor disputes.=0A> =0A> If someone wants to create a non-ATEG list devot=
ed to grammar and=0A> linguistics--fine.=A0 I think a number of us would wa=
nt to join that one=0A> also.=A0 But I for one see no reason to encourage c=
reating various=0A> sub-groups that have far more in common than they have =
differences.=A0 =0A> =0A> I've spend most of my career in the shadow of a s=
plit between literature=0A> and composition/rhetoric faculty (if not a spli=
t between composition and=0A> rhetoric, for heaven's sake), and it seems to=
me the splitting of this=0A> list into grammarians vs linguists is not pro=
ductive to either good=0A> discussions of language or to our scholarly and =
teaching community.=A0 I've=0A> grown tired of such false dichotomies, and =
I suspect I'm not alone.=0A> =0A> Larry=0A> =0A> __________________________=
__=0A> Larry Beason, Associate Professor=0A> Director of Composition=0A> Un=
iversity of South Alabama=0A> Mobile, AL 36688-0002=0A> Office: 251-460-786=
1=0A> FAX: 251-461-1517=0A> =0A> =0A> >>> "Dixon, Jack" <Jack.Dixon@LONESTA=
R.EDU> 7/18/2011 12:42 PM >>>=0A> Excellent suggestion.=A0 =A0 Grammarians,=
communicate directly with the list=0A> manager.=0A> =0A> From: Assembly fo=
r the Teaching of English Grammar=0A> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On =
Behalf Of Craig Hancock=0A> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:47 AM=0A> To: AT=
[log in to unmask] =0A> Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot=0A> =
=0A>=A0 =A0 If I am not mistaken, it is possible to direct messages directl=
y to=0A>=A0 =A0 the keeper of the list. If there are grammarians among us w=
ho would=0A>=A0 =A0 like to see the list (or a portion of the list) set asi=
de for=0A>=A0 =A0 grammarians only (as Brad would define it), without comme=
ntary from=0A>=A0 =A0 linguists, then perhaps they should communicate that =
directly to the=0A>=A0 =A0 list manager. If there are a large number among =
us who feel that way,=0A>=A0 =A0 then the list manager could let that be kn=
own, and we could take the=0A>=A0 =A0 suggestion seriously. If not, then le=
t's continue as we have in the=0A>=A0 =A0 past.=0A> =0A> Craig=0A> =0A> =0A=
> =0A> On 7/18/2011 12:39 PM, Carole Hurlbut wrote:=0A> I would appreciate =
discussions to be respectful and positive. I delete=0A> some emails and may=
need to use a filter or block. Thanks to members who=0A> make positive cho=
ices in their responses. I appreciate it.=0A> =0A> Carole=0A> =0A> From: Br=
ad Johnston<mailto:[log in to unmask]>=0A> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 1=
1:05 AM=0A> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>=
=0A> Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot=0A> =0A> Note this, Geoffrey.=
See what I mean? There's nothing "crackpot" about=0A> "All Gaul is divided=
".=0A> =0A> Bully the chickens and they won't reply. They just won't. No on=
e likes to=0A> be bullied as Dick Veit likes to [try to] bully me.=0A> =0A>=
(I changed email addresses because Internet Explorer is having problems=0A=
> that effect my old address. I now use Google Chrome and a new Yahoo=0A> a=
ddress.=A0 Nothing evil or devious about it.)=0A> =0A> "exactly what he wan=
ts", b.t.w, is very clearly, and reasonably, stated=0A> in All Gaul is divi=
ded. Maybe, just maybe, the chickens don't want you in=0A> their hen house,=
Dick. If you ever ask them what they want, ask them if=0A> they want me in=
their hen house. If they (grammarians) don't, I will=0A> withdraw with con=
siderably more good grace that you exhibit below.=0A> =0A> .brad.18july11.=
=0A> =0A> ________________________________=0A> From: Dick Veit <dickveit@GM=
AIL.COM><mailto:[log in to unmask]>=0A> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto=
:[log in to unmask]>=0A> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:28 AM=0A> Sub=
ject: How to deal with a crackpot=0A> Why am I again getting mail from our =
resident crackpot, when I put a=0A> filter on my email account to block his=
messages?=0A> =0A> Answers:=0A> 1. He changed his email address (so I will=
now block the new one too).=0A> 2. Non-crackpots keep responding to his ma=
il. At long last, can't people=0A> realize that it is exactly what he wants=
? Just stop responding to him, no=0A> matter what crazy things he says to p=
rovoke you.=0A> =0A> ~~~~~=0A> =0A> Date:=A0 =A0 Sun, 17 Jul 2011 06:35:31 =
-0700=0A> From:=A0 =A0 Brad Johnston=0A> <[log in to unmask]><mailto:br.=
[log in to unmask]>=0A> Subject: All Gaul is divided=0A> Regarding the poss=
ible division of the two main parts of ATEG, which I=0A> hope will be consi=
dered at the annual meeting, it seems to me that the=0A> goal of grammar is=
that we all might be on the same page, literally and=0A> figuratively, so =
that we might be better able to understand one another.=0A> =0A> Understand=
ing one another doesn't depend on where words and conventions=0A> came from=
as much as what they mean. Linguists look at what people=0A> actually say =
and write, (and said and wrote), whereas grammarians try to=0A> agree on wh=
at makes sense to most of us most of the time. Linguists have=0A> different=
training, different interests, and different goals. They look=0A> at what =
divides us (descriptive grammar), while grammarians look for what=0A> joins=
us together (prescriptive grammar).=0A> =0A> When the linguists, who domin=
ate the ATEG listserv, go off on one of=0A> their arcane tangents, the gram=
marians politely say to the linguists,=0A> "that's interesting", but it's r=
ather like a corn farmer saying "that's=0A> interesting" to a cattle ranche=
r who describes the particulars of raising=0A> Holsteins. What interests th=
e linguists IS interesting, it just isn't=0A> what makes the grammar world =
go around.=0A> =0A> The demonstrable result is that the linguists tend to c=
arry on their=0A> exotic discussions on this listserv and the grammarians t=
end to lurk in=0A> the shadows. I propose to you that there should be a way=
to better serve=0A> the grammarians, of whom there are thousands in this c=
ountry, and who=0A> each have questions about the day-to-day of teaching gr=
ammar.=0A> =0A> The grammarians can go somewhere else, of course, and maybe=
they do, but=0A> since ATEG is the Assembly for the Teaching of English Gr=
ammar, why is it=0A> not appropriate that ATEG concern itself with English =
Grammar and let the=0A> linguists go elsewhere and ponder, in a different v=
enue, those things=0A> that interest them?=0A> =0A> br-had.sun.17july11.=0A=
> .=0A> =0A> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's w=
eb=0A> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and sele=
ct=0A> "Join or leave the list"=0A> =0A> Visit ATEG's web site at http://at=
eg.org/ =0A> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's w=
eb=0A> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and sele=
ct=0A> "Join or leave the list"=0A> =0A> Visit ATEG's web site at http://at=
eg.org/ =0A> =0A> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the lis=
t's web=0A> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and=
select=0A> "Join or leave the list"=0A> =0A> Visit ATEG's web site at http=
://ateg.org/ =0A> =0A> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit th=
e list's web=0A> interface at:=0A>=A0 =A0 =A0 http://listserv.muohio.edu/ar=
chives/ateg.html =0A> and select "Join or leave the list"=0A> =0A> Visit AT=
EG's web site at http://ateg.org/=0A> =0A> To join or leave this LISTSERV l=
ist, please visit the list's web=0A> interface at:=0A>=A0 =A0 =A0 http://li=
stserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=0A> and select "Join or leave the list=
"=0A> =0A> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=0A> =0A--=0Amcjsa@123m=
ail.org=0A=0ATo join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's w=
eb interface at:=0A=A0 =A0 http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=0A=
and select "Join or leave the list"=0A=0AVisit ATEG's web site at http://at=
eg.org/=0A
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-905509043-1311175906=:63679
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:bookman old style, new york, times, seri=
f;font-size:12pt"><DIV></DIV>=0A<DIV>I'm not sure why nobody has said this =
on this thread yet, but not all grammarians are prescriptivists. </DIV>=0A<=
DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>Paul D.<BR> </DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3D"tahom=
a, new york, times, serif">"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could c=
ondemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).</FONT> =
=0A<DIV><BR></DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york=
, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: bookman =
old style, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=3D2 face=3DT=
ahoma>=0A<HR SIZE=3D1>=0A<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN><=
/B> M C Johnstone <[log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGH=
T: bold">To:</SPAN></B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-=
WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wed, July 20, 2011 8:58:13 AM<BR><B><SPAN st=
yle=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: How to deal with a crackp=
ot<BR></FONT><BR>Larry,<BR><BR>I agree with you about dual sympathies and t=
hink that the ATEG list is<BR>enriched by a variety of opinion. I understan=
d what Brad is saying below<BR>in All Gaul although I'm not sure what a gro=
up of prescriptivist<BR>grammarians would have do to, other than prescribin=
g, and I've heard<BR>much more than anyone ever should hear about the past =
perfect.<BR><BR>If I had my druthers, I'd go with the linguists and their "=
arcane<BR>tangents," but it needn't come to that. Brad can easily start a<B=
R>prescriptive grammar list and invite participants. I have seen this done<=
BR>on other lists in
response to similar complaints.<BR><BR>Mark<BR><BR>On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 13:=
08 -0500, "Larry Beason" <<A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" ymailt=
o=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>><BR>wrote:<BR=
>> I'd suggest we not split the list, esp since I think a number of us<B=
R>> identify with both grammarians and linguists. Setting aside a =
portion of<BR>> the list is in effect creating a new list within a list,=
and there are<BR>> practical problems. For instance, as the overa=
ll ATEG list grows and<BR>> changes, will newcomers know there are essen=
tially two lists? How often<BR>> does the list manager have to upd=
ate and revise these sub-lists? I think<BR>> it's a bit much to as=
k list managers to keep up with such matters. I<BR>> might be miss=
ing something, but it seems to me it would be overreacting<BR>> to some =
minor disputes.<BR>> <BR>> If someone wants to create a non-ATEG
list devoted to grammar and<BR>> linguistics--fine. I think a num=
ber of us would want to join that one<BR>> also. But I for one see=
no reason to encourage creating various<BR>> sub-groups that have far m=
ore in common than they have differences. <BR>> <BR>> I've spen=
d most of my career in the shadow of a split between literature<BR>> and=
composition/rhetoric faculty (if not a split between composition and<BR>&g=
t; rhetoric, for heaven's sake), and it seems to me the splitting of this<B=
R>> list into grammarians vs linguists is not productive to either good<=
BR>> discussions of language or to our scholarly and teaching community.=
I've<BR>> grown tired of such false dichotomies, and I suspect I'=
m not alone.<BR>> <BR>> Larry<BR>> <BR>> ______________________=
______<BR>> Larry Beason, Associate Professor<BR>> Director of Compos=
ition<BR>> University of South Alabama<BR>> Mobile, AL
36688-0002<BR>> Office: 251-460-7861<BR>> FAX: 251-461-1517<BR>> =
<BR>> <BR>> >>> "Dixon, Jack" <<A href=3D"mailto:Jack.Dix=
[log in to unmask]" ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Jack.Dixon@LONE=
STAR.EDU</A>> 7/18/2011 12:42 PM >>><BR>> Excellent suggesti=
on. Grammarians, communicate directly with the list<BR>> ma=
nager.<BR>> <BR>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<=
BR>> [mailto:<A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" ymailto=3D"mail=
to:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>] On Behalf Of Cra=
ig Hancock<BR>> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:47 AM<BR>> To: <A href=
=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
.EDU">[log in to unmask]</A> <BR>> Subject: Re: How to deal with a=
crackpot<BR>> <BR>> If I am not mistaken, it is possibl=
e to direct messages directly to<BR>> the keeper of the lis=
t. If
there are grammarians among us who would<BR>> like to see =
the list (or a portion of the list) set aside for<BR>> gram=
marians only (as Brad would define it), without commentary from<BR>>&nbs=
p; linguists, then perhaps they should communicate that directly to =
the<BR>> list manager. If there are a large number among us=
who feel that way,<BR>> then the list manager could let th=
at be known, and we could take the<BR>> suggestion seriousl=
y. If not, then let's continue as we have in the<BR>> past.=
<BR>> <BR>> Craig<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> On 7/18/2011 12:=
39 PM, Carole Hurlbut wrote:<BR>> I would appreciate discussions to be r=
espectful and positive. I delete<BR>> some emails and may need to use a =
filter or block. Thanks to members who<BR>> make positive choices in the=
ir responses. I appreciate it.<BR>> <BR>> Carole<BR>>
<BR>> From: Brad Johnston<mailto:<A href=3D"mailto:br.hadvines@YAHOO=
.COM" ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>>=
;<BR>> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:05 AM<BR>> To: <A href=3D"mailt=
o:[log in to unmask]" ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">ATE=
[log in to unmask]</A><mailto:<A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
EDU" ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</=
A>><BR>> Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot<BR>> <BR>> No=
te this, Geoffrey. See what I mean? There's nothing "crackpot" about<BR>>=
; "All Gaul is divided".<BR>> <BR>> Bully the chickens and they won't=
reply. They just won't. No one likes to<BR>> be bullied as Dick Veit li=
kes to [try to] bully me.<BR>> <BR>> (I changed email addresses becau=
se Internet Explorer is having problems<BR>> that effect my old address.=
I now use Google Chrome and a new Yahoo<BR>> address. Nothing evi=
l or
devious about it.)<BR>> <BR>> "exactly what he wants", b.t.w, is ver=
y clearly, and reasonably, stated<BR>> in All Gaul is divided. Maybe, ju=
st maybe, the chickens don't want you in<BR>> their hen house, Dick. If =
you ever ask them what they want, ask them if<BR>> they want me in their=
hen house. If they (grammarians) don't, I will<BR>> withdraw with consi=
derably more good grace that you exhibit below.<BR>> <BR>> .brad.18ju=
ly11.<BR>> <BR>> ________________________________<BR>> From: Dick =
Veit <<A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" ymailto=3D"mailto:dickveit@G=
MAIL.COM">[log in to unmask]</A>><mailto:<A href=3D"mailto:dickveit@G=
MAIL.COM" ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>><=
BR>> To: <A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" ymailto=3D"mailto:A=
[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A><mailto:<A href=3D"=
mailto:[log in to unmask]"
ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>&g=
t;<BR>> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:28 AM<BR>> Subject: How to dea=
l with a crackpot<BR>> Why am I again getting mail from our resident cra=
ckpot, when I put a<BR>> filter on my email account to block his message=
s?<BR>> <BR>> Answers:<BR>> 1. He changed his email address (so I =
will now block the new one too).<BR>> 2. Non-crackpots keep responding t=
o his mail. At long last, can't people<BR>> realize that it is exactly w=
hat he wants? Just stop responding to him, no<BR>> matter what crazy thi=
ngs he says to provoke you.<BR>> <BR>> ~~~~~<BR>> <BR>> Date:&n=
bsp; Sun, 17 Jul 2011 06:35:31 -0700<BR>> From: Brad=
Johnston<BR>> <<A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" ymailto=3D"m=
ailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>><mailto:<A hre=
f=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"
ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>><BR>=
> Subject: All Gaul is divided<BR>> Regarding the possible division o=
f the two main parts of ATEG, which I<BR>> hope will be considered at th=
e annual meeting, it seems to me that the<BR>> goal of grammar is that w=
e all might be on the same page, literally and<BR>> figuratively, so tha=
t we might be better able to understand one another.<BR>> <BR>> Under=
standing one another doesn't depend on where words and conventions<BR>> =
came from as much as what they mean. Linguists look at what people<BR>> =
actually say and write, (and said and wrote), whereas grammarians try to<BR=
>> agree on what makes sense to most of us most of the time. Linguists h=
ave<BR>> different training, different interests, and different goals. T=
hey look<BR>> at what divides us (descriptive grammar), while grammarian=
s look for what<BR>> joins us together (prescriptive
grammar).<BR>> <BR>> When the linguists, who dominate the ATEG lists=
erv, go off on one of<BR>> their arcane tangents, the grammarians polite=
ly say to the linguists,<BR>> "that's interesting", but it's rather like=
a corn farmer saying "that's<BR>> interesting" to a cattle rancher who =
describes the particulars of raising<BR>> Holsteins. What interests the =
linguists IS interesting, it just isn't<BR>> what makes the grammar worl=
d go around.<BR>> <BR>> The demonstrable result is that the linguists=
tend to carry on their<BR>> exotic discussions on this listserv and the=
grammarians tend to lurk in<BR>> the shadows. I propose to you that the=
re should be a way to better serve<BR>> the grammarians, of whom there a=
re thousands in this country, and who<BR>> each have questions about the=
day-to-day of teaching grammar.<BR>> <BR>> The grammarians can go so=
mewhere else, of course, and maybe they do, but<BR>> since ATEG
is the Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar, why is it<BR>> not=
appropriate that ATEG concern itself with English Grammar and let the<BR>&=
gt; linguists go elsewhere and ponder, in a different venue, those things<B=
R>> that interest them?<BR>> <BR>> br-had.sun.17july11.<BR>> .<=
BR>> <BR>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list=
's web<BR>> interface at: <A href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives=
/ateg.html" target=3D_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</=
A> and select<BR>> "Join or leave the list"<BR>> <BR>> Visit ATEG'=
s web site at <A href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D_blank>http://ateg.org/=
</A> <BR>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's =
web<BR>> interface at: <A href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/at=
eg.html" target=3D_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A> =
and select<BR>> "Join or leave the list"<BR>> <BR>> Visit ATEG's w=
eb
site at <A href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D_blank>http://ateg.org/</A> =
<BR>> <BR>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the lis=
t's web<BR>> interface at: <A href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archive=
s/ateg.html" target=3D_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<=
/A> and select<BR>> "Join or leave the list"<BR>> <BR>> Visit ATEG=
's web site at <A href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D_blank>http://ateg.org=
/</A> <BR>> <BR>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit t=
he list's web<BR>> interface at:<BR>> <A href=3D"=
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D_blank>http://lists=
erv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A> <BR>> and select "Join or leave th=
e list"<BR>> <BR>> Visit ATEG's web site at <A href=3D"http://ateg.or=
g/" target=3D_blank>http://ateg.org/</A><BR>> <BR>> To join or leave =
this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<BR>> interface at:<BR>&g=
t;
<A href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" ta=
rget=3D_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>> and=
select "Join or leave the list"<BR>> <BR>> Visit ATEG's web site at =
<A href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D_blank>http://ateg.org/</A><BR>> <=
BR>--<BR><A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" ymailto=3D"mailto:mcjsa@123ma=
il.org">[log in to unmask]</A><BR><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, p=
lease visit the list's web interface at:<BR> <A href=3D"http:/=
/listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D_blank>http://listserv.mu=
ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><=
BR>Visit ATEG's web site at <A href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D_blank>ht=
tp://ateg.org/</A><BR></DIV></DIV></div></body></html>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-905509043-1311175906=:63679--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 01:02:45 +0300
From: M C Johnstone <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--_----------=_1311199365208101
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 18:02:45 -0400
X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface
I didn't mean to imply that grammarians must be prescriptivists.
I was referring to Brad's dichotomy:
> They [linguists] look
> at what divides us (descriptive grammar), while grammarians
look for what
> joins us together (prescriptive grammar).
Mark
"The whole theory of modern education is radically unsound.
Fortunately, in England at any rate, education has no effect
whastoever."
- Lady Bracknell in "The Importance of Being Earnest"
On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 08:31 -0700, "Paul E. Doniger"
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
I'm not sure why nobody has said this on this thread yet, but not
all grammarians are prescriptivists.
Paul D.
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an
improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
____________________________________________________________
From: M C Johnstone <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wed, July 20, 2011 8:58:13 AM
Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot
Larry,
I agree with you about dual sympathies and think that the ATEG
list is
enriched by a variety of opinion. I understand what Brad is
saying below
in All Gaul although I'm not sure what a group of prescriptivist
grammarians would have do to, other than prescribing, and I've
heard
much more than anyone ever should hear about the past perfect.
If I had my druthers, I'd go with the linguists and their "arcane
tangents," but it needn't come to that. Brad can easily start a
prescriptive grammar list and invite participants. I have seen
this done
on other lists in response to similar complaints.
Mark
On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 13:08 -0500, "Larry Beason"
<[1][log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> I'd suggest we not split the list, esp since I think a number
of us
> identify with both grammarians and linguists. Setting aside a
portion of
> the list is in effect creating a new list within a list, and
there are
> practical problems. For instance, as the overall ATEG list
grows and
> changes, will newcomers know there are essentially two lists?
How often
> does the list manager have to update and revise these
sub-lists? I think
> it's a bit much to ask list managers to keep up with such
matters. I
> might be missing something, but it seems to me it would be
overreacting
> to some minor disputes.
>
> If someone wants to create a non-ATEG list devoted to grammar
and
> linguistics--fine. I think a number of us would want to join
that one
> also. But I for one see no reason to encourage creating
various
> sub-groups that have far more in common than they have
differences.
>
> I've spend most of my career in the shadow of a split between
literature
> and composition/rhetoric faculty (if not a split between
composition and
> rhetoric, for heaven's sake), and it seems to me the splitting
of this
> list into grammarians vs linguists is not productive to either
good
> discussions of language or to our scholarly and teaching
community. I've
> grown tired of such false dichotomies, and I suspect I'm not
alone.
>
> Larry
>
> ____________________________
> Larry Beason, Associate Professor
> Director of Composition
> University of South Alabama
> Mobile, AL 36688-0002
> Office: 251-460-7861
> FAX: 251-461-1517
>
>
> >>> "Dixon, Jack" <[2][log in to unmask]> 7/18/2011 12:42
PM >>>
> Excellent suggestion. Grammarians, communicate directly with
the list
> manager.
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[3][log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:47 AM
> To: [4][log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot
>
> If I am not mistaken, it is possible to direct messages
directly to
> the keeper of the list. If there are grammarians among us
who would
> like to see the list (or a portion of the list) set aside
for
> grammarians only (as Brad would define it), without
commentary from
> linguists, then perhaps they should communicate that
directly to the
> list manager. If there are a large number among us who feel
that way,
> then the list manager could let that be known, and we could
take the
> suggestion seriously. If not, then let's continue as we have
in the
> past.
>
> Craig
>
>
>
> On 7/18/2011 12:39 PM, Carole Hurlbut wrote:
> I would appreciate discussions to be respectful and positive. I
delete
> some emails and may need to use a filter or block. Thanks to
members who
> make positive choices in their responses. I appreciate it.
>
> Carole
>
> From: Brad Johnston<mailto:[5][log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:05 AM
> To:
[6][log in to unmask]<mailto:[7][log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot
>
> Note this, Geoffrey. See what I mean? There's nothing
"crackpot" about
> "All Gaul is divided".
>
> Bully the chickens and they won't reply. They just won't. No
one likes to
> be bullied as Dick Veit likes to [try to] bully me.
>
> (I changed email addresses because Internet Explorer is having
problems
> that effect my old address. I now use Google Chrome and a new
Yahoo
> address. Nothing evil or devious about it.)
>
> "exactly what he wants", b.t.w, is very clearly, and
reasonably, stated
> in All Gaul is divided. Maybe, just maybe, the chickens don't
want you in
> their hen house, Dick. If you ever ask them what they want, ask
them if
> they want me in their hen house. If they (grammarians) don't, I
will
> withdraw with considerably more good grace that you exhibit
below.
>
> .brad.18july11.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Dick Veit
<[8][log in to unmask]><mailto:[9][log in to unmask]>
> To:
[10][log in to unmask]<mailto:[11][log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:28 AM
> Subject: How to deal with a crackpot
> Why am I again getting mail from our resident crackpot, when I
put a
> filter on my email account to block his messages?
>
> Answers:
> 1. He changed his email address (so I will now block the new
one too).
> 2. Non-crackpots keep responding to his mail. At long last,
can't people
> realize that it is exactly what he wants? Just stop responding
to him, no
> matter what crazy things he says to provoke you.
>
> ~~~~~
>
> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 06:35:31 -0700
> From: Brad Johnston
> <[12][log in to unmask]><mailto:[13][log in to unmask]>
> Subject: All Gaul is divided
> Regarding the possible division of the two main parts of ATEG,
which I
> hope will be considered at the annual meeting, it seems to me
that the
> goal of grammar is that we all might be on the same page,
literally and
> figuratively, so that we might be better able to understand one
another.
>
> Understanding one another doesn't depend on where words and
conventions
> came from as much as what they mean. Linguists look at what
people
> actually say and write, (and said and wrote), whereas
grammarians try to
> agree on what makes sense to most of us most of the time.
Linguists have
> different training, different interests, and different goals.
They look
> at what divides us (descriptive grammar), while grammarians
look for what
> joins us together (prescriptive grammar).
>
> When the linguists, who dominate the ATEG listserv, go off on
one of
> their arcane tangents, the grammarians politely say to the
linguists,
> "that's interesting", but it's rather like a corn farmer saying
"that's
> interesting" to a cattle rancher who describes the particulars
of raising
> Holsteins. What interests the linguists IS interesting, it just
isn't
> what makes the grammar world go around.
>
> The demonstrable result is that the linguists tend to carry on
their
> exotic discussions on this listserv and the grammarians tend to
lurk in
> the shadows. I propose to you that there should be a way to
better serve
> the grammarians, of whom there are thousands in this country,
and who
> each have questions about the day-to-day of teaching grammar.
>
> The grammarians can go somewhere else, of course, and maybe
they do, but
> since ATEG is the Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar,
why is it
> not appropriate that ATEG concern itself with English Grammar
and let the
> linguists go elsewhere and ponder, in a different venue, those
things
> that interest them?
>
> br-had.sun.17july11.
> .
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
web
> interface at: [14]http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at [15]http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
web
> interface at: [16]http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at [17]http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
web
> interface at: [18]http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at [19]http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
web
> interface at:
> [20]http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at [21]http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
web
> interface at:
> [22]http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at [23]http://ateg.org/
>
--
[24][log in to unmask]
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
[25]http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at [26]http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join
or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
References
1. mailto:[log in to unmask]
2. mailto:[log in to unmask]
3. mailto:[log in to unmask]
4. mailto:[log in to unmask]
5. mailto:[log in to unmask]
6. mailto:[log in to unmask]
7. mailto:[log in to unmask]
8. mailto:[log in to unmask]
9. mailto:[log in to unmask]
10. mailto:[log in to unmask]
11. mailto:[log in to unmask]
12. mailto:[log in to unmask]
13. mailto:[log in to unmask]
14. http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
15. http://ateg.org/
16. http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
17. http://ateg.org/
18. http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
19. http://ateg.org/
20. http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
21. http://ateg.org/
22. http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
23. http://ateg.org/
24. mailto:[log in to unmask]
25. http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
26. http://ateg.org/
--
[log in to unmask]
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_----------=_1311199365208101
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 18:02:45 -0400
X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface
<!--/*SC*/DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd"/*EC*/-->
<html><head><title></title><style type="text/css"><!--
body{padding:1ex;margin:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:small}a[href]{col
or:-moz-hyperlinktext!important;text-decoration:-moz-anchor-decoration}block
quote{margin:0;border-left:2px solid #144fae;padding-left:1em}blockquote
blockquote{border-color:#006312}blockquote blockquote
blockquote{border-color:#540000} --></style></head><body><div
style="font-family: Arial; font-size: medium;" dir="ltr"><div>
I didn't mean to imply that grammarians must be prescriptivists.
I was referring to Brad's dichotomy:</div>
<div>
</div>
<div>
> They [linguists] look<br />
> at what divides us (descriptive grammar), while grammarians
look for what<br />
> joins us together (prescriptive grammar).</div>
<div>
</div>
<div>
Mark</div>
<div>
</div>
<div>
"The whole theory of modern education is radically unsound.
Fortunately, in England at any rate, education has no effect
whastoever."</div>
<div>
- Lady Bracknell in "The Importance of Being
Earnest"</div>
<div>
</div>
<div class="defangedMessage">
<div id="me52499">
<div>
On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 08:31 -0700, "Paul E.
Doniger" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="me52499QuoteMessage" type="cite">
<style type="text/css"><!-- --></style>
<div style="font-family:bookman old style, new york,
times, serif;font-size:12pt">
<div>
</div>
<div>
I'm not sure why nobody has said
this on this thread yet, but not all grammarians are prescriptivists.</div>
<div>
</div>
<div>
Paul D.<br />
</div>
<span style="font-size: small; font-family:
tahoma," new york"," times"," serif";
">"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an
improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).</span>
<div>
</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style,
new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<br />
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: bookman old
style, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<hr size="1" />
<span style="font-size:
small; font-family: Tahoma; "><span style="font-weight: bold"><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</span></span> M C Johnstone
<[log in to unmask]><br />
<span style="font-weight:
bold"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></span>
[log in to unmask]<br />
<span style="font-weight:
bold"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></span> Wed, July 20, 2011
8:58:13 AM<br />
<span style="font-weight:
bold"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></span> Re: How to deal
with a crackpot</span><br />
<br />
Larry,<br />
<br />
I agree with you about dual
sympathies and think that the ATEG list is<br />
enriched by a variety of
opinion. I understand what Brad is saying below<br />
in All Gaul although I'm
not sure what a group of prescriptivist<br />
grammarians would have do
to, other than prescribing, and I've heard<br />
much more than anyone ever
should hear about the past perfect.<br />
<br />
If I had my druthers,
I'd go with the linguists and their "arcane<br />
tangents," but it
needn't come to that. Brad can easily start a<br />
prescriptive grammar list
and invite participants. I have seen this done<br />
on other lists in response
to similar complaints.<br />
<br />
Mark<br />
<br />
On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 13:08
-0500, "Larry Beason" <<a
defang_ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]"
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br />
wrote:<br />
> I'd suggest we not
split the list, esp since I think a number of us<br />
> identify with both
grammarians and linguists. Setting aside a portion of<br />
> the list is in effect
creating a new list within a list, and there are<br />
> practical
problems. For instance, as the overall ATEG list grows and<br />
> changes, will newcomers
know there are essentially two lists? How often<br />
> does the list manager
have to update and revise these sub-lists? I think<br />
> it's a bit much to
ask list managers to keep up with such matters. I<br />
> might be missing
something, but it seems to me it would be overreacting<br />
> to some minor
disputes.<br />
><br />
> If someone wants to
create a non-ATEG list devoted to grammar and<br />
>
linguistics--fine. I think a number of us would want to join that
one<br />
> also. But I for
one see no reason to encourage creating various<br />
> sub-groups that have
far more in common than they have differences. <br />
><br />
> I've spend most of
my career in the shadow of a split between literature<br />
> and
composition/rhetoric faculty (if not a split between composition and<br />
> rhetoric, for
heaven's sake), and it seems to me the splitting of this<br />
> list into grammarians
vs linguists is not productive to either good<br />
> discussions of language
or to our scholarly and teaching community. I've<br />
> grown tired of such
false dichotomies, and I suspect I'm not alone.<br />
><br />
> Larry<br />
><br />
>
____________________________<br />
> Larry Beason, Associate
Professor<br />
> Director of
Composition<br />
> University of South
Alabama<br />
> Mobile, AL
36688-0002<br />
> Office: 251-460-7861<br
/>
> FAX: 251-461-1517<br />
><br />
><br />
> >>>
"Dixon, Jack" <<a
defang_ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]"
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>>
7/18/2011 12:42 PM >>><br />
> Excellent
suggestion. Grammarians, communicate directly with the list<br
/>
> manager.<br />
><br />
> From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar<br />
> [mailto:<a
defang_ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]"
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>] On
Behalf Of Craig Hancock<br />
> Sent: Monday, July 18,
2011 11:47 AM<br />
> To: <a
defang_ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]"
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br />
> Subject: Re: How to
deal with a crackpot<br />
><br />
> If I am
not mistaken, it is possible to direct messages directly to<br />
> the keeper
of the list. If there are grammarians among us who would<br />
> like to
see the list (or a portion of the list) set aside for<br />
>
grammarians only (as Brad would define it), without commentary from<br />
> linguists,
then perhaps they should communicate that directly to the<br />
> list
manager. If there are a large number among us who feel that way,<br />
> then the
list manager could let that be known, and we could take the<br />
> suggestion
seriously. If not, then let's continue as we have in the<br />
> past.<br
/>
><br />
> Craig<br />
><br />
><br />
><br />
> On 7/18/2011 12:39 PM,
Carole Hurlbut wrote:<br />
> I would appreciate
discussions to be respectful and positive. I delete<br />
> some emails and may
need to use a filter or block. Thanks to members who<br />
> make positive choices
in their responses. I appreciate it.<br />
><br />
> Carole<br />
><br />
> From: Brad
Johnston<mailto:<a defang_ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]"
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br />
> Sent: Monday, July 18,
2011 11:05 AM<br />
> To: <a
defang_ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]"
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><mailt
o:<a defang_ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]"
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br
/>
> Subject: Re: How to
deal with a crackpot<br />
><br />
> Note this, Geoffrey.
See what I mean? There's nothing "crackpot" about<br />
> "All Gaul is
divided".<br />
><br />
> Bully the chickens and
they won't reply. They just won't. No one likes to<br />
> be bullied as Dick Veit
likes to [try to] bully me.<br />
><br />
> (I changed email
addresses because Internet Explorer is having problems<br />
> that effect my old
address. I now use Google Chrome and a new Yahoo<br />
> address. Nothing
evil or devious about it.)<br />
><br />
> "exactly what he
wants", b.t.w, is very clearly, and reasonably, stated<br />
> in All Gaul is divided.
Maybe, just maybe, the chickens don't want you in<br />
> their hen house, Dick.
If you ever ask them what they want, ask them if<br />
> they want me in their
hen house. If they (grammarians) don't, I will<br />
> withdraw with
considerably more good grace that you exhibit below.<br />
><br />
> .brad.18july11.<br />
><br />
>
________________________________<br />
> From: Dick Veit <<a
defang_ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]"
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><mailto:<a
defang_ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]"
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br />
> To: <a
defang_ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]"
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><mailt
o:<a defang_ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]"
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br
/>
> Sent: Monday, July 18,
2011 11:28 AM<br />
> Subject: How to deal
with a crackpot<br />
> Why am I again getting
mail from our resident crackpot, when I put a<br />
> filter on my email
account to block his messages?<br />
><br />
> Answers:<br />
> 1. He changed his email
address (so I will now block the new one too).<br />
> 2. Non-crackpots keep
responding to his mail. At long last, can't people<br />
> realize that it is
exactly what he wants? Just stop responding to him, no<br />
> matter what crazy
things he says to provoke you.<br />
><br />
> ~~~~~<br />
><br />
> Date: Sun,
17 Jul 2011 06:35:31 -0700<br />
> From: Brad
Johnston<br />
> <<a
defang_ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]"
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><mailto:
<a defang_ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]"
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br />
> Subject: All Gaul is
divided<br />
> Regarding the possible
division of the two main parts of ATEG, which I<br />
> hope will be considered
at the annual meeting, it seems to me that the<br />
> goal of grammar is that
we all might be on the same page, literally and<br />
> figuratively, so that
we might be better able to understand one another.<br />
><br />
> Understanding one
another doesn't depend on where words and conventions<br />
> came from as much as
what they mean. Linguists look at what people<br />
> actually say and write,
(and said and wrote), whereas grammarians try to<br />
> agree on what makes
sense to most of us most of the time. Linguists have<br />
> different training,
different interests, and different goals. They look<br />
> at what divides us
(descriptive grammar), while grammarians look for what<br />
> joins us together
(prescriptive grammar).<br />
><br />
> When the linguists, who
dominate the ATEG listserv, go off on one of<br />
> their arcane tangents,
the grammarians politely say to the linguists,<br />
> "that's
interesting", but it's rather like a corn farmer saying
"that's<br />
> interesting" to a
cattle rancher who describes the particulars of raising<br />
> Holsteins. What
interests the linguists IS interesting, it just isn't<br />
> what makes the grammar
world go around.<br />
><br />
> The demonstrable result
is that the linguists tend to carry on their<br />
> exotic discussions on
this listserv and the grammarians tend to lurk in<br />
> the shadows. I propose
to you that there should be a way to better serve<br />
> the grammarians, of
whom there are thousands in this country, and who<br />
> each have questions
about the day-to-day of teaching grammar.<br />
><br />
> The grammarians can go
somewhere else, of course, and maybe they do, but<br />
> since ATEG is the
Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar, why is it<br />
> not appropriate that
ATEG concern itself with English Grammar and let the<br />
> linguists go elsewhere
and ponder, in a different venue, those things<br />
> that interest them?<br
/>
><br />
> br-had.sun.17july11.<br
/>
> .<br />
><br />
> To join or leave this
LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<br />
> interface at: <a
href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
target="_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and
select<br />
> "Join or leave the
list"<br />
><br />
> Visit ATEG's web
site at <a href="http://ateg.org/" target="_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br
/>
> To join or leave this
LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<br />
> interface at: <a
href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
target="_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and
select<br />
> "Join or leave the
list"<br />
><br />
> Visit ATEG's web
site at <a href="http://ateg.org/" target="_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br
/>
><br />
> To join or leave this
LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<br />
> interface at: <a
href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
target="_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and
select<br />
> "Join or leave the
list"<br />
><br />
> Visit ATEG's web
site at <a href="http://ateg.org/" target="_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br
/>
><br />
> To join or leave this
LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<br />
> interface at:<br />
> <a
href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
target="_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br />
> and select "Join
or leave the list"<br />
><br />
> Visit ATEG's web
site at <a href="http://ateg.org/" target="_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br
/>
><br />
> To join or leave this
LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<br />
> interface at:<br />
> <a
href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
target="_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br />
> and select "Join
or leave the list"<br />
><br />
> Visit ATEG's web
site at <a href="http://ateg.org/" target="_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br
/>
><br />
--<br />
<a
defang_ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]"
href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br />
<br />
To join or leave this
LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<br />
<a
href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
target="_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br />
and select "Join or
leave the list"<br />
<br />
Visit ATEG's web site at
<a href="http://ateg.org/" target="_blank">http://ateg.org/</a></div>
</div>
</div>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div><div>--</div>
<div><a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a></div>
</body></html>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_----------=_1311199365208101--
------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 19 Jul 2011 to 20 Jul 2011 (#2011-132)
***********************************************************
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
|
