Hi, Cynthia:
I guess the way to test Johanna's explanation concerning the
structure of the sentence under discussion would be to place it into
a tree structure. I would be very curious to see how Johanna would
structure that tree.
Eduard
>Cynthia Baird <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> At the risk of continuing a thread that may need to die a decent
death, I want to post an excited response--excited because as a mere
(in comparison to some of the regular respondents) high school
English teacher, I find that I agree with Herb, and I think Johanna
(both of whom I deeply admire from their frequent and helpful posts)
about this sentence! If this were my student, I would immediately
compliment him for his original sentence (compared to most high
school students), and I would correct his comma error, but I would
immediately explain to him that he had cleverly placed a participial
phrase in the subject slot of the sentence, creating a very inversive
type of sentence! I don't understand all of the existential stuff,
nor would my high school student!
>
> I appreciate all of the respondents to posts--you have helped me
so much as a teacher, even if some of the more sophisticated
discussion go over my head!
>
>"John E. Dews" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> As usual, I particularly enjoy Herb's perspective here
(although I also appreciate the different ways in which others have
approached this sentence -- it reminds me that there is no single,
perfect answer).
> "Running from the back of his skull down to the front is a
patch of white hair that opens up into his lips."
> If, as Herb suggests (as I understood it), the phrase in
subject position here is an adjectival participle, then I have
another question. Does this "bend" the basic tenant/tendency in
English for there to be a nominal in subject position? Or do we say
that the phrase is both adjectival and nominal in function (even
though the phrase doesn't seem to act/"feel" much like a noun phrase
and is nominal only in the sense that! it is in subject position)?
Have syntax studies shown this to be a common pattern in English? I
can't seem to find a reference for participle phrases functioning
nominally/in subject position. Our own Martha Kolln deals with
participles strictly as adjectivals in her Understanding English
Grammar.
> Sorry for so many questions, but I am intrigued (aren't we a
peculiar bunch to be intrigued by such things!). Thanks!
> Jed Dews
>
>"Stahlke, Herbert F.W." <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> A fascinating sentence, both image and structure, and an
interesting set of analyses. So let's try another one. It's an
existential sentence in which the original verb phrase becomes a
participial phrase and replaces the subject "there", with a
derivation, for those of us who like derivations, so! mething like
this:
>
>A patch of white hair that opens up into his lips runs from the back
of his skull down to the front.
>
>Since English tends! to avoid indefinites in subject position, this
sentence is better expressed as the existential
>
>There is a patch of white hair that opens up into his lips, running
from the back of his skull down to the front. (I put in a comma
simply to avoid confusion with running lips (sink ships?).)
>
>This writer then has cleverly moved the participial phrase into
subject position, maybe because some teacher once said not to start a
sentence with "there is", giving us
>
>Running from the back of his skull down to the front is a patch of
white hair that opens up into his lips.
>
>The reasons for considering it an existential sentence are the
indefinite postposed subject and the copula, further supported by the
otherwise anomalous participial phrase subject.
>
>The comma, I think, is unrelated to any of this. Rather, the! re is
a tendency among inexperienced writers, and experienced ones as well,
to insert a comma between a long subject and the verb.
>
>Herb
>
>
>A ! student wrote the following sentence in an essay:
>
>Running from the back of his skull down to the front, is a patch of
white
>hair that opens up into his lips.
>The comma doesn't belong there, but I'm not sure why. Is
the "Running"
>phrase a gerund? If so, then I understand why the comma is wrong: it
>separates the subject from the verb However, the phrase doesn't
behave like
>a gerund. Compare:
>
>Running around the lake is a part of my daily routine. --> It is a
part of
>my daily routine. --> A part of my daily routine is running around
the
>lake.
>
>In this sentence, the "Running" phrase behaves like a true noun
phrase in a
>linking verb sentence. My student's "Running" phrase doesn't behave
like an
>NP. It feels participial, modifying "patch". If so, then the comma
would
>be correct.! But it's not.
>
>Any ideas out there?
>
>John
>
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>
*****************************************************************
> John E. Dews
> Instructor, Undergraduate Linguistics
> MA-TESOL/Applied Linguistics Program
> Educator, Secondary English Language Arts
> English Department, 208 Rowand-Johnson Hall (Office)
> University of Alabama
>
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