Scott,
I'll creep out on a limb and defend "[The fact that X] V...]"
constructions. To quasi-summarize findings from several studies
(Swales's text on graduate writing discusses some of these, if I
remember correctly) they *do* perform a function that a simple nominal
that-clause in initial position doesn't: they let you modulate the
strength of the claim. They do so in a way that actually strengthens the
point that you and I think S&W were potentially aiming for, though:
That the fall of Rome was entirely due to barbarians is.....
The assertion that the fall of Rome was entirely due to barbarians
is....
The claim that the fall of Rome was entirely due to barbarians...
The belief that the fall of Rome was entirely due to barbarians...
Despite their being rather vague when unmodified, nouns like "claim" and
"belief" do let the writer construct a more carefully-targeted message,
and thus they're quite useful in academic writing. Again, the issue here
is not exactly fluffy nouns in general, nor is it adjectives and adverbs
-- it's purposeless (or mis-purposed) vagary. I just wish S&W had stuck
to something like, "think about why you're picking the words you use."
Orwell gets that basic idea across in a much shorter piece than S&W
("Politics and the English Language"), and even has the wisdom to
include as his last rule an injunction to break any of the preceding
rules if following them produces something awful.
Sincerely,
Bill Spruiell
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 11:57 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: S&W & What dunnit? was ATEG Digest - 15 Apr 2009 to 16 Apr
2009 (#2009-87)
I. Bill--
Obviously you understood what S&W meant--unlike the intellectually (or
grammatically) impoverished Pulliam, who had no idea. I agree with you
that
S&W could be better worded. You make the accurate point that students
go generic then use modifiers to hone in on the meaning. I pointed out
in
my classes that first you write, then you rewrite. I quoted, "To the
beauty
of fair Greece and the glory of old Rome" and asked the students if the
lines sounded like great poetry--they always laughed and commented,
"maybe
for a 7th grader" or something else of that ilk. When I repeated,
"To the glory that was Greece and the grandeur that was Rome," the
students
always said, "Much better," or "That's beautiful," etc. I would reply
that
Poe believed in rewriting. We would then discuss an anonymous inflated
sentence or confused paragraph to see how it could be improved. The
author
almost always appreciated the input.
The fact that some writers claiming to be professional writers use "The
fact
that" does not make it any more felicitous. Notice how my sentence
would be
improved by deleting the initial "The fact." I not only persisted in
using
a green pen on themes that used the phrase, "The fact that"; in writing
argumentative papers but also offered extra credit for anyone using "the
fact that" in a simple context that could not be improved either by a
mere
deletion or by a deletion and substitution of a gerund.
My idea of a professional writer is William Buckley or Edwin Newman. If
we,
however, are talking of fiction writers, I am quite a Clancy fan. He
makes
errors in grammar, languages, and ancient history; however, that his
modern
data is accurate is quite an asset to the tales that he tells.
In a meeting of the Federal Executive Board in Los Angeles, I stated
that
the illiteracy of the guidance issued by the Office of Personnel
Management
and other Federal agencies left a door wide open for any literate
lawyer,
specialist, or union steward to profit from their poor English. The
speaker, to my pleasant surprise, agreed with me wholeheartedly and
expressed the wish that literate reviewers could be hired to review all
written materials; however, such people were far too scarce and did not
qualify for any direct hire--they had to be contract personnel and
contracts, by Federal law, did not guarantee specific personnel.
Note that many "professional writers" are in advertising: "Winston
tastes
good as a cigarette should" lacks oomph.
Hitchcock, on the other hand, attracted much attention by having
billboards
that announced, "The birds is coming."
II. "These were determined by where the speaker would need to breathe."
"These" were determined by what?
Who or what determined "These"? What agent determined "These"?
Where the speaker need to breathe determined "These."
Where's the beef? Where's the phrasal verb?
Scott Catledge
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest
system
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 12:01 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 15 Apr 2009 to 16 Apr 2009 (#2009-87)
There are 9 messages totalling 2307 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. An expert speaks? was ATEG Digest - 14 Apr 2009 to 15 Apr 2009
(#2009-86)
(3)
2. object of a preposition? (6)
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Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:08:23 -0400
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: An expert speaks? was ATEG Digest - 14 Apr 2009 to 15 Apr
2009
(#2009-86)
Pulliam is the stupid one if he does not understand what The Little Book
means by
"Write with nouns and verbs, not with adjectives and adverbs," they
insist.
(The motivation of this mysterious decree remains unclear to me.)
Anyone who had ever graded English themes, especially descriptive
writing,
has been exposed to students who use plain verbs and generic nouns, both
of
which are accompanied by a plethora of adverbs and adjectives
respectively
when more descriptive verbs and nouns would do a far better job with
less
effort. The only explanation that I can give for such students is
either
functional illiteracy or sheer laziness (many theme assignments have--or
used to have--a minimum number of words). The slovenly among them use
any
gimmick to expand their impoverished thoughts and expression.
I cannot believe that Professor Pulliam has taught English without
having
encountered such students: his extreme prejudice towards The Little Book
seems to have blinded him to the extent that he can only see vices and
never
virtue. The Little Book has its faults; however, I would trust Shrunk
and
White over a "grammarian" who has had too little contact with writing to
understand the motivation for the very sound advice:
"Write with nouns and verbs, not with adjectives and adverbs."
(The motivation of this decree is quite clear to me and has been since
Freshman English.)
Scott Catledge
Professor Emeritus
During the "God is dead" fad of the 60's, I had a bumper sticker that
said,
"My God is alive--sorry about yours."
My understanding of the "motivation" is clear to me--sorry it's not
clear
to him. Perhaps he should teach a Freshman English course sometime.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:18:26 -0400
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: An expert speaks? was ATEG Digest - 14 Apr 2009 to 15 Apr
2009
(#2009-86)
Scott:
I've had similar students --- but the advice they need is more along the
lines of, "use specific nouns, not fluffy ones." The problem really
isn't the adjectives and adverbs. And at least some of those students
aren't deliberately being verbose, or displaying signs of functional
illiteracy (they probably know a fair number of highly specific
nouns...but they're part of the students' passive vocabulary, rather
than being part of the active pool that is deployed when writing).
Instead, they've adopted a common strategy of marking out a general area
with the noun and then using modifiers to home in on a particular spot
in within it.=20
In fact, it's the same thing professional writers do when they come out
with sentences such as "The fact that these results have been observed
indicates that the phenomenon is real." "Fact" is fluffy -- but since I
know the genre, I know when I can get away with using it (if that
sentence bothers you, all I can say is that amazing numbers of articles
have been published with near-equivalents). Students pick up on that
kind of practice, but they don't yet have enough exposure to scientific
genre to know which words can be used in particular cases without coming
across as "gauche."
This simply highlights one of Pullum's points: One of S&W's major
injunctions is that writers should be clear and concise, but they wrote
THEIR OWN RULE in a way that attacked a side effect of the actual
problem rather than the problem itself, and implied there was something
wrong with entire classes of words that are only problematic when
they're used as part of a compensation mechanism. It's as if I watched
someone using glue to connect two pieces of wood that should instead
have been nailed together, and then proclaimed that glue is a bad thing.
I'd probably figure out my mistake once I saw people trying to nail
wallpaper.
Bill Spruiell
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 1:08 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: An expert speaks? was ATEG Digest - 14 Apr 2009 to 15 Apr
2009 (#2009-86)
Pulliam is the stupid one if he does not understand what The Little Book
means by=20
"Write with nouns and verbs, not with adjectives and adverbs," they
insist.
(The motivation of this mysterious decree remains unclear to me.)
Anyone who had ever graded English themes, especially descriptive
writing,
has been exposed to students who use plain verbs and generic nouns, both
of
which are accompanied by a plethora of adverbs and adjectives
respectively
when more descriptive verbs and nouns would do a far better job with
less
effort. The only explanation that I can give for such students is
either
functional illiteracy or sheer laziness (many theme assignments have--or
used to have--a minimum number of words). The slovenly among them use
any
gimmick to expand their impoverished thoughts and expression.
I cannot believe that Professor Pulliam has taught English without
having
encountered such students: his extreme prejudice towards The Little Book
seems to have blinded him to the extent that he can only see vices and
never
virtue. The Little Book has its faults; however, I would trust Shrunk
and
White over a "grammarian" who has had too little contact with writing to
understand the motivation for the very sound advice:
"Write with nouns and verbs, not with adjectives and adverbs."=20
(The motivation of this decree is quite clear to me and has been since
Freshman English.)
Scott Catledge
Professor Emeritus
During the "God is dead" fad of the 60's, I had a bumper sticker that
said,
"My God is alive--sorry about yours."
My understanding of the "motivation" is clear to me--sorry it's not
clear
to him. Perhaps he should teach a Freshman English course sometime.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:46:48 -0700
From: "Castilleja, Janet" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: object of a preposition?
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C9BED4.75AF32D8
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Hello
=20
How would you analyze this sentence?
=20
These were determined by where the speaker would need to breathe.
=20
Is 'where the speaker would need to breathe' the object of the
preposition 'by'? Is 'determined by' possibly a phrasal verb? I
checked Longman's Dictionary of Phrasal Verbs. It wasn't in there. In
either case would 'where the speaker would need to breathe' be a
nominal? I guess it could be. We can say 'where we go to dinner is up
to you,' for example.
=20
Janet
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Hello<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>How would you analyze this =
sentence?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>These were determined by where the speaker would need
=
to
breathe.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Is ‘where the speaker would need to =
breathe’ the
object of the preposition ‘by’? Is ‘determined =
by’
possibly a phrasal verb? I checked Longman’s<i><span
style=3D'font-style:italic'> Dictionary of Phrasal Verbs</span></i>. It
=
wasn’t
in there. In either case would ‘where the speaker would need
=
to
breathe’ be a nominal? I guess it could be. We can say
=
‘where
we go to dinner is up to you,’ for =
example.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Janet<b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:bold'><o:p></o:p></span></b></span></font></p>
</div>
</body>
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:57:03 -0400
From: "Myers, Marshall" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: An expert speaks? was ATEG Digest - 14 Apr 2009 to 15 Apr
2009
(#2009-86)
Bill,
John Wade, my dean, says "hello." He related a story about your
blueberry p=
icking.
Sorry for the interruption.
Marshall
Eastern Kentucky University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 4:18 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: An expert speaks? was ATEG Digest - 14 Apr 2009 to 15 Apr
2009=
(#2009-86)
Scott:
I've had similar students --- but the advice they need is more along the
lines of, "use specific nouns, not fluffy ones." The problem really
isn't the adjectives and adverbs. And at least some of those students
aren't deliberately being verbose, or displaying signs of functional
illiteracy (they probably know a fair number of highly specific
nouns...but they're part of the students' passive vocabulary, rather
than being part of the active pool that is deployed when writing).
Instead, they've adopted a common strategy of marking out a general area
with the noun and then using modifiers to home in on a particular spot
in within it.=20
In fact, it's the same thing professional writers do when they come out
with sentences such as "The fact that these results have been observed
indicates that the phenomenon is real." "Fact" is fluffy -- but since I
know the genre, I know when I can get away with using it (if that
sentence bothers you, all I can say is that amazing numbers of articles
have been published with near-equivalents). Students pick up on that
kind of practice, but they don't yet have enough exposure to scientific
genre to know which words can be used in particular cases without coming
across as "gauche."
This simply highlights one of Pullum's points: One of S&W's major
injunctions is that writers should be clear and concise, but they wrote
THEIR OWN RULE in a way that attacked a side effect of the actual
problem rather than the problem itself, and implied there was something
wrong with entire classes of words that are only problematic when
they're used as part of a compensation mechanism. It's as if I watched
someone using glue to connect two pieces of wood that should instead
have been nailed together, and then proclaimed that glue is a bad thing.
I'd probably figure out my mistake once I saw people trying to nail
wallpaper.
Bill Spruiell
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 1:08 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: An expert speaks? was ATEG Digest - 14 Apr 2009 to 15 Apr
2009 (#2009-86)
Pulliam is the stupid one if he does not understand what The Little Book
means by=20
"Write with nouns and verbs, not with adjectives and adverbs," they
insist.
(The motivation of this mysterious decree remains unclear to me.)
Anyone who had ever graded English themes, especially descriptive
writing,
has been exposed to students who use plain verbs and generic nouns, both
of
which are accompanied by a plethora of adverbs and adjectives
respectively
when more descriptive verbs and nouns would do a far better job with
less
effort. The only explanation that I can give for such students is
either
functional illiteracy or sheer laziness (many theme assignments have--or
used to have--a minimum number of words). The slovenly among them use
any
gimmick to expand their impoverished thoughts and expression.
I cannot believe that Professor Pulliam has taught English without
having
encountered such students: his extreme prejudice towards The Little Book
seems to have blinded him to the extent that he can only see vices and
never
virtue. The Little Book has its faults; however, I would trust Shrunk
and
White over a "grammarian" who has had too little contact with writing to
understand the motivation for the very sound advice:
"Write with nouns and verbs, not with adjectives and adverbs."=20
(The motivation of this decree is quite clear to me and has been since
Freshman English.)
Scott Catledge
Professor Emeritus
During the "God is dead" fad of the 60's, I had a bumper sticker that
said,
"My God is alive--sorry about yours."
My understanding of the "motivation" is clear to me--sorry it's not
clear
to him. Perhaps he should teach a Freshman English course sometime.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:31:49 -0500
From: Gerald Walton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: object of a preposition?
--=====================_434817671==.ALT
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In my view, "by" is a regular preposition. And, yes, the noun clause
"the speaker would need to breathe where" is the object of the
preposition.
Gerald
At 03:46 PM 4/16/2009, you wrote:
>Hello
>
>How would you analyze this sentence?
>
>These were determined by where the speaker would need to breathe.
>
>Is 'where the speaker would need to breathe' the object of the
>preposition 'by'? Is 'determined by' possibly a phrasal verb? I
>checked Longman's Dictionary of Phrasal Verbs. It wasn't in there.
>In either case would 'where the speaker would need to breathe' be a
>nominal? I guess it could be. We can say 'where we go to dinner is
>up to you,' for example.
>
>Janet
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
>select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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<body>
In my view, "by" is a regular preposition. And, yes, the noun
clause "the speaker would need to breathe where" is the object
of the preposition.<br>
Gerald<br><br>
At 03:46 PM 4/16/2009, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite=3D""><font size=3D2>Hello<br>
<br>
How would you analyze this sentence?<br>
<br>
These were determined by where the speaker would need to breathe.<br>
<br>
Is =91where the speaker would need to breathe=92 the object of the
preposition =91by=92? Is =91determined by=92 possibly a phrasal verb?
I=
checked
Longman=92s<i> Dictionary of Phrasal Verbs</i>. It wasn=92t in there.
In
either case would =91where the speaker would need to breathe=92 be a
nomi=
nal?
I guess it could be. We can say =91where we go to dinner is up to
you,=92=
=20
for example.<br>
<br>
Janet<br>
</font>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 14:47:29 -0700
From: "Kathleen M. Ward" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: object of a preposition?
--Apple-Mail-19--381755388
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And "were determined" is passive voice, making the "by" phrase what is
=20=
sometimes called the "agent" phrase. So I don't think "determined" is
=20=
a phrasal verb. It occurs a lot in the passive voice, however.
KMW
On Apr 16, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Castilleja, Janet wrote:
> Hello
>
> How would you analyze this sentence?
>
> These were determined by where the speaker would need to breathe.
>
> Is =91where the speaker would need to breathe=92 the object of the =20
> preposition =91by=92? Is =91determined by=92 possibly a phrasal verb?
=
I =20
> checked Longman=92s Dictionary of Phrasal Verbs. It wasn=92t in there.
=
=20
> In either case would =91where the speaker would need to breathe=92 be
=
a =20
> nominal? I guess it could be. We can say =91where we go to dinner is
=
=20
> up to you,=92 for example.
>
> Janet
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =20
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and =20
> select "Join or leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">And "were determined" is =
passive voice, making the "by" phrase what is sometimes called the =
"agent" phrase. So I don't think "determined" is a phrasal verb. =
It occurs a lot in the passive voice, =
however.<div><br></div><div>KMW<br><div><div>On Apr 16, 2009, at 1:46 =
PM, Castilleja, Janet wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent:
=
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing:
=
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue"
=
vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"Section1"><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in;
=
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size:
=
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size=3D"2" =
face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; =
">Hello<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size:
=
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size=3D"2" =
face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; =
"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size:
=
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size=3D"2" =
face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; ">How
=
would you analyze this sentence?<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Arial; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Arial; ">These were determined by where the speaker =
would need to breathe.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Arial; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Arial; ">Is =91where the speaker would need to =
breathe=92 the object of the preposition =91by=92? Is
=91determined =
by=92 possibly a phrasal verb? I checked Longman=92s<i><span =
style=3D"font-style: italic; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Dictionary of Phrasal =
Verbs</span></i>. It wasn=92t in there. In either case would =
=91where the speaker would need to breathe=92 be a nominal? I =
guess it could be. We can say =91where we go to dinner is up to =
you,=92 for example.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Arial; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Arial; ">Janet<b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold; =
"><o:p></o:p></span></b></span></font></div></div>To join or leave this
=
LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a =
href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" style=3D"color: =
blue; text-decoration: underline; =
">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>and select "Join or leave =
the list"<p>Visit ATEG's web site at<span =
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href=3D"http://ateg.org/" =
style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline; =
">http://ateg.org/</a></p></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></bo
dy=
></html>=
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:31:13 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: object of a preposition?
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I agree with Kathleen, but perhaps the problem with analyzing the
sentence,=
at least on first pass, is the independent relative that serves as the
obj=
ect of the preposition "by." We don't think of clauses as agents, but
the =
by-phrase can also be instrumental, as in
The window was smashed by a wind-borne tree limb.
However, instruments tend to be inanimate objects, with the well-known
exce=
ption of cases like
James Bond broke the window with the Russian.
There is, however, a broader semantic category that works here, called
"sou=
rce." "...where the speaker needs to breathe" is the source whatever
"thes=
e" refers to.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Kathleen M. Ward
Sent: 2009-04-16 17:47
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: object of a preposition?
And "were determined" is passive voice, making the "by" phrase what is
some=
times called the "agent" phrase. So I don't think "determined" is a
phrasa=
l verb. It occurs a lot in the passive voice, however.
KMW
On Apr 16, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Castilleja, Janet wrote:
Hello
How would you analyze this sentence?
These were determined by where the speaker would need to breathe.
Is 'where the speaker would need to breathe' the object of the
preposition =
'by'? Is 'determined by' possibly a phrasal verb? I checked Longman's
Dic=
tionary of Phrasal Verbs. It wasn't in there. In either case would
'where =
the speaker would need to breathe' be a nominal? I guess it could be.
We =
can say 'where we go to dinner is up to you,' for example.
Janet
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
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the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
leave=
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space'>
<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I agree with Kathleen, but perhaps the problem with
analyzin=
g
the sentence, at least on first pass, is the independent relative that
serv=
es
as the object of the preposition “by.” We don’t
thi=
nk of clauses as agents,
but the by-phrase can also be instrumental, as in <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The window was smashed by a wind-borne tree
limb.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>However, instruments tend to be inanimate objects, with
the
well-known exception of cases like<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>James Bond broke the window with the
Russian.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>There is, however, a broader semantic category that works
he=
re, called
“source.” “…where the speaker needs to
breath=
e” is the source whatever “these”
refers to.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
0in =
0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=
","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly
for =
the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On
Behalf =
Of </b>Kathleen
M. Ward<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2009-04-16 17:47<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: object of a preposition?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>And "were determined" is passive voice,
maki=
ng the
"by" phrase what is sometimes called the "agent"
phrase=
.
So I don't think "determined" is a phrasal verb.
It
occurs a lot in the passive voice, however.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>KMW<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>On Apr 16, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Castilleja, Janet
wrote:<=
o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:black'>Hello</span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:black'>How would you analyze this sentence?</span><span
style=3D'colo=
r:
black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:black'>These were determined by where the speaker would need to
breat=
he.</span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:black'>Is ‘where the speaker would need to breathe’
the o=
bject of the
preposition ‘by’? Is ‘determined by’
possibly=
a phrasal verb? I
checked Longman’s<span
class=3Dapple-converted-space><i> </i></s=
pan><i>Dictionary
of Phrasal Verbs</i>. It wasn’t in there. In either case
would =
‘where the
speaker would need to breathe’ be a nominal? I guess it
could b=
e.
We can say ‘where we go to dinner is up to you,’ for
exam=
ple.</span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:black'>Janet</span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
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uoh=
io.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><span
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list"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 22:14:09 -0400
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: object of a preposition?
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The sentence can be recast as an active, and I can see the nominal
wh-clause as a metaphorical agent (and yes, I'm not sure what the
difference between "source" and "metaphorical agent" is either!):
=20
Where the speaker needs to breathe determined this.
=20
If that sounds a bit odd, maybe this works a bit better, since it's less
context-dependent:
=20
What the participants asked for determined what they got.
=20
=20
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:31 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: object of a preposition?
=20
I agree with Kathleen, but perhaps the problem with analyzing the
sentence, at least on first pass, is the independent relative that
serves as the object of the preposition "by." We don't think of clauses
as agents, but the by-phrase can also be instrumental, as in=20
=20
The window was smashed by a wind-borne tree limb.
=20
However, instruments tend to be inanimate objects, with the well-known
exception of cases like
=20
James Bond broke the window with the Russian.
=20
There is, however, a broader semantic category that works here, called
"source." "...where the speaker needs to breathe" is the source
whatever "these" refers to.
=20
Herb
=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Kathleen M. Ward
Sent: 2009-04-16 17:47
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: object of a preposition?
=20
And "were determined" is passive voice, making the "by" phrase what is
sometimes called the "agent" phrase. So I don't think "determined" is a
phrasal verb. It occurs a lot in the passive voice, however.
=20
KMW
On Apr 16, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Castilleja, Janet wrote:
=20
Hello
=20
How would you analyze this sentence?
=20
These were determined by where the speaker would need to breathe.
=20
Is 'where the speaker would need to breathe' the object of the
preposition 'by'? Is 'determined by' possibly a phrasal verb? I
checked Longman's Dictionary of Phrasal Verbs. It wasn't in there. In
either case would 'where the speaker would need to breathe' be a
nominal? I guess it could be. We can say 'where we go to dinner is up
to you,' for example.
=20
Janet
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=20
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"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
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"Join or leave the list"=20
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The sentence can be recast as an active, and I can see =
the
nominal wh-clause as a metaphorical agent (and yes, I’m not sure =
what the
difference between “source” and “metaphorical =
agent” is either!):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Where the speaker =
needs to
breathe determined this.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>If that sounds a bit odd, maybe this works a bit better,
=
since
it’s less context-dependent:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>What the participants asked for determined what they =
got.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Bill Spruiell<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dept. of English<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Central Michigan University<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span
>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly =
for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>STAHLKE,
HERBERT F<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: object of a preposition?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I agree with Kathleen, but perhaps the problem with =
analyzing
the sentence, at least on first pass, is the independent relative that =
serves
as the object of the preposition “by.” We don’t
=
think of clauses as
agents, but the by-phrase can also be instrumental, as in =
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The window was smashed by a wind-borne tree =
limb.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>However, instruments tend to be inanimate objects, with =
the
well-known exception of cases like<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>James Bond broke the window with the =
Russian.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>There is, however, a broader semantic category that works
=
here,
called “source.” “…where the speaker needs
=
to breathe” is the source
whatever “these” refers to.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span
>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly =
for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Kathleen
M. Ward<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2009-04-16 17:47<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: object of a preposition?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>And "were determined" is passive voice, =
making the
"by" phrase what is sometimes called the "agent" =
phrase.
So I don't think "determined" is a phrasal verb. =
It
occurs a lot in the passive voice, however.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>KMW<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>On Apr 16, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Castilleja, Janet =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Hello</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>How would you analyze this sentence?</span><span =
style=3D'color:
black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>These were determined by where the speaker would need to =
breathe.</span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Is ‘where the speaker would need to breathe’ =
the object of the
preposition ‘by’? Is ‘determined by’ =
possibly a phrasal verb? I
checked Longman’s<span =
class=3Dapple-converted-space><i> </i></span><i>Dictionary
of Phrasal Verbs</i>. It wasn’t in there. In either case =
would ‘where the
speaker would need to breathe’ be a nominal? I guess it =
could be.
We can say ‘where we go to dinner is up to you,’ for =
example.</span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Janet</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
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u=
ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><span
class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span>and select "Join or =
leave the
list"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>Visit ATEG's web site at<span =
class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span><a
href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit =
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C9BF02.48615564--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 23:16:14 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: object of a preposition?
--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D543128E1409FAEMAILBACKEND0_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I've taught and studied semantic roles and categories, and I don't think
an=
yoneis sure what some of these differences are. Any scheme of semantic
rol=
es runs in problems of overlap like agent-instrument-source,
patient-recipi=
ent-experiencer, and I fear my distinction among them is as arbitrary as
mo=
st of the others. I like fuzzy logic, and so saying that a source is a
met=
aphorical agent appeals to me. But then I can't tell the difference
betwee=
n Bud and Miller either.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: 2009-04-16 22:14
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: object of a preposition?
The sentence can be recast as an active, and I can see the nominal
wh-claus=
e as a metaphorical agent (and yes, I'm not sure what the difference
betwee=
n "source" and "metaphorical agent" is either!):
Where the speaker needs to breathe determined this.
If that sounds a bit odd, maybe this works a bit better, since it's less
co=
ntext-dependent:
What the participants asked for determined what they got.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:31 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: object of a preposition?
I agree with Kathleen, but perhaps the problem with analyzing the
sentence,=
at least on first pass, is the independent relative that serves as the
obj=
ect of the preposition "by." We don't think of clauses as agents, but
the =
by-phrase can also be instrumental, as in
The window was smashed by a wind-borne tree limb.
However, instruments tend to be inanimate objects, with the well-known
exce=
ption of cases like
James Bond broke the window with the Russian.
There is, however, a broader semantic category that works here, called
"sou=
rce." "...where the speaker needs to breathe" is the source whatever
"thes=
e" refers to.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Kathleen M. Ward
Sent: 2009-04-16 17:47
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: object of a preposition?
And "were determined" is passive voice, making the "by" phrase what is
some=
times called the "agent" phrase. So I don't think "determined" is a
phrasa=
l verb. It occurs a lot in the passive voice, however.
KMW
On Apr 16, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Castilleja, Janet wrote:
Hello
How would you analyze this sentence?
These were determined by where the speaker would need to breathe.
Is 'where the speaker would need to breathe' the object of the
preposition =
'by'? Is 'determined by' possibly a phrasal verb? I checked Longman's
Dic=
tionary of Phrasal Verbs. It wasn't in there. In either case would
'where =
the speaker would need to breathe' be a nominal? I guess it could be.
We =
can say 'where we go to dinner is up to you,' for example.
Janet
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
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the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
leave=
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
leave=
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
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To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D543128E1409FAEMAILBACKEND0_
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<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap:
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d;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space'>
<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I’ve taught and studied semantic roles and
categories,=
and I don’t
think anyoneis sure what some of these differences are. Any scheme
of=
semantic
roles runs in problems of overlap like agent-instrument-source,
patient-rec=
ipient-experiencer,
and I fear my distinction among them is as arbitrary as most of the
others.=
I
like fuzzy logic, and so saying that a source is a metaphorical agent
appea=
ls
to me. But then I can’t tell the difference between Bud and
Mil=
ler either.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
0in =
0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=
","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly
for =
the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On
Behalf =
Of </b>Spruiell,
William C<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2009-04-16 22:14<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: object of a preposition?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The sentence can be recast as an active, and I can see
the
nominal wh-clause as a metaphorical agent (and yes, I’m not sure
what=
the
difference between “source” and “metaphorical
agent”=
; is either!):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span
style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Where the speaker
needs t=
o
breathe determined this.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>If that sounds a bit odd, maybe this works a bit better,
sin=
ce
it’s less context-dependent:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>What the participants asked for determined what they
got.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Bill Spruiell<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dept. of English<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Central Michigan University<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
0in =
0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=
","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly
for =
the Teaching
of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>ST=
AHLKE,
HERBERT F<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: object of a preposition?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I agree with Kathleen, but perhaps the problem with
analyzin=
g
the sentence, at least on first pass, is the independent relative that
serv=
es
as the object of the preposition “by.” We don’t
thi=
nk of clauses as
agents, but the by-phrase can also be instrumental, as in
<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The window was smashed by a wind-borne tree
limb.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>However, instruments tend to be inanimate objects, with
the
well-known exception of cases like<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>James Bond broke the window with the
Russian.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>There is, however, a broader semantic category that works
he=
re,
called “source.” “…where the speaker needs
to=
breathe” is the source
whatever “these” refers to.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
0in =
0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=
","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly
for =
the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On
Behalf =
Of </b>Kathleen
M. Ward<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2009-04-16 17:47<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: object of a preposition?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>And "were determined" is passive voice,
maki=
ng the
"by" phrase what is sometimes called the "agent"
phrase=
.
So I don't think "determined" is a phrasal verb.
It
occurs a lot in the passive voice, however.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>KMW<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>On Apr 16, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Castilleja, Janet
wrote:<=
o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:black'>Hello</span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:black'>How would you analyze this sentence?</span><span
style=3D'colo=
r:
black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:black'>These were determined by where the speaker would need to
breat=
he.</span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:black'>Is ‘where the speaker would need to breathe’
the o=
bject of the
preposition ‘by’? Is ‘determined by’
possibly=
a phrasal verb? I
checked Longman’s<span
class=3Dapple-converted-space><i> </i></s=
pan><i>Dictionary
of Phrasal Verbs</i>. It wasn’t in there. In either case
would =
‘where the
speaker would need to breathe’ be a nominal? I guess it
could b=
e.
We can say ‘where we go to dinner is up to you,’ for
exam=
ple.</span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";
color:black'>Janet</span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica"=
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color:black'>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
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End of ATEG Digest - 15 Apr 2009 to 16 Apr 2009 (#2009-87)
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