Herb,
     I appreciate all of your comments. As for passive voice and moveable adverbs, in the KISS curriculum adverbs (moveable and not) and adjectives are introduced in grade three. Passive voice is started, theoretically, in grade five. If the curriculum is spread out over several years, many things can be included that I basically ignore in dealing with my college students. Thus I don't spend any time on adjectives and adverbs, and this semester I skipped the only lesson in my materials on passive voice. There is simply not enough time to deal with them effectively when students start at zero. I would, however, definitely agree that both moveable adverbs and passive voice should be included in a multi-year plan.
   As for sliding constructions, they are related to alternative explanations. For example, in the sentence from Aesop's fables "I am helping to lay up food {for the winter,"} some people will see "for the winter" as an adjective that describes "food" and others will see it as an adverb that modifies (purpose) "to lay up." Thus alternative explanations are introduced and allowed within KISS even at the third grade level, and alternative explanations are very close to sliding constructions. Phrasal verbs can be explained as sliding, as can the passive vs. PA question in "The eggs were scrambled." Thus far most users of KISS have reported little, if any problem in having students accept the idea that a word or construction can be explained in more than one way. 
     I'm having a problem with your discussion of "that." If "that" is not the subject of "fit" in 
 
This room has three long red velvet booths that fit eight people each.
 
then what is? I do note, however, that pedagogically you agree that in working with K-12 students, "that" can be explained as the subject. Can't it function as both the subject and a subordinating conjunction, or does your grammar not allow double functions?
 
    The question of gerundives is, for me, of particular interest. Quite frankly, I laugh (and cry) at those members of this list who insist that we teach a distinction between form and function, and who then use "participle" to designate both a form and a function. This causes major confusion for many teachers. Hunt claimed that the gerundive does not develop before college. He did not use that term, in fact he does not name the construction. But all of his examples fit the KISS gerundive. I think Hunt is wrong, but I do agree with him that the gerundive is a late developing construction. I'll note that I have seen it in the writing of some fourth graders, but we should not base instruction on what "some" few students can do. I have, however, seen a push to get all fourth or fifth graders to use gerundives. In part this push is the result of teachers seeing "going" in "She was going to the store," and, as a result, saying that most fourth graders use "participles." This is a complicated question, but my basic point is that I believe we do need a term to distinguish the form (participle) from the function (the KISS gerundive). I can't remember for certain, but if I remember correctly, I got the term from Paul Roberts.
 
    Again, thanks for your comments. I think that we agree that basic concepts * prep phrases, adjectives, adverbs, subjects, finite verbs really should be mastered by students before they get to college. I would also suggest that ATEG could propose a minimal set of terms, comparable to what I have previously suggested, that should be mastered by specific grade levels. ATEG could also indicate that that minimal list is subject to revision. I have the sense that some people want an entire plan, including morphology, etc., etc. I don't think that ATEG itself can agree on a comprehensive plan within the next decade. Shouldn't the group start with a much shorter list?
 
Ed
 


>>> [log in to unmask] 10/5/2005 12:11:29 PM >>>

Ed,Latin has certainly contributed to the confusion, as has the whole spirit of prescriptivism.  And your argument for clear, stable terminology is sound.  I might point to a few terms in KISS that are a idiosyncratic, like your use of "gerundive", but the point is that we have to decide first what we need names for, that is, the content and concepts, and then agree on terminology, with, inevitably, some room for variation.Herb



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