Ron,
The inherent or innate nature of grammar is, in fact, a theoretical
underpinning of the anti-grammar movement. Part of that means thinking
of grammar as a behavior, not as a body of knowledge, and as largely a
neutral conveyor of meaning. We now test grammar in terms of what
students can do, not what they know (even in the SAT test) because it is
generally believed that conscious knowledge is unnecessary and unhelpful.
You're right; the anti-grammar position that acquisition will just
happen through exposure has never been tested. Debra Myhill makes these
points nicely in an article in English Teaching: Practice and Critique
(Dec. 2005. You can access it online. Martha and I have an article in
the same issue.) Here's a few quotes.
from abstract: .../there has never been a critical theorization of how
grammar might support the development of writing, and thus there has
been very limited research which has explored that relationship.. (77)/
Quotes Tomlinson (1994, p26) that condemnation of grammar on flimsy
evidence was /what many in the educational establishment wanted to
hear/. (80)
/What would be so much more interesting, and valuable, would be to
explore in more subtly nuanced detail what research can tell us about
what aspects of grammar and knowledge about language are most relevant
to writing, whether direct teaching of these features can help children
improve their writing, and what teaching strategies are most successful
in enabling this to happen/. (80)
/ /
/The truth is that teaching grammar and knowledge about language in
positive, contextualised ways which make clear links with writing is not
yet an established way of teaching and it is, as yet, hugely
under-researched. (81)
/
T/he rejection of decontextualised, and with it by implication,
prescriptive, grammar teaching was rooted in insightful critique of what
was happening in English classrooms. In contrast, the "grammar in
context" principle is both less sharply critiqued and considerably less
clearly conceptualised. There has been little genuine discussion or
consideration of what "in context" means. Frequently, observations of
classroom practice indicate that the notion of "in context" means little
more than grammar teaching which is slotted into English lessons, where
the focus is not grammar, but some other feature of English learning./ (82)
I think we are absolutely on the same wave length. The people who
rely on these empirical studies that critique the teaching of grammar
have not done empirical studies of their own. The cure has proven worse
than the disease.
But we need to conceptualize a program before we can try it out.
Craig
Ronald Sheen wrote:
> Thanks, Craig, for your thought-provoking post. It raises a number of
> issues which demand careful responses.
>
> Before providing any, I should clarify one or two things. First, my
> area of experience is in SLA (second language acquisition) in which I
> have done most of my research. However, I believe that in the field
> of SLA and FLA (first language acquisition) teachers and students have
> been the victims of the educational theorists who claimed that
> exposure to correct language in the classroom will result in the
> students' acquisition thereof in spite of massive exposure to
> non-standard language outside of the classroom.
>
> I take the position that such theorists were (and are) guilty of
> unaccountable irresponsibility and this because they did not support
> their advocacy with empirical evidence. Thus, for reasons we need not
> go into here, educational authorities climbed aboard the bandwagon and
> suddenly teachers were forbidden to teach grammar and were made to
> feel quilty if they did.
>
> Now, before coming to the details of your excellent post, I would
> appreciate your responding to the above remarks. I know that my
> assumption is correct in terms of SLA. Is it also correct in terms of
> FLA?
>
> Ron.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Craig Hancock <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> *To:* [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 11, 2007 6:36 AM
> *Subject:* Re: Supportive empirical evidence was Silly, rewarding
> grammar period
>
> Ron,
> My comments were rather unfocused and unclear, and I suspect
> you and I are not far apart on positions. I'll try again.
> For the most part, empirical studies of grammar effectiveness
> that i have read measure their effect on writing as compared to
> students who have had writing instruction, but not grammar.
> Generally, this has been measured over the short term. Generally,
> this has measured students receiving grammar instruction, but not
> practice in writing. (What we would call control groups.) This
> implies that our only goal is improvement in writing and that this
> can be accurately measured in the short term, with grammar versus
> writing as an either/or choice.
> In other words, under this pattern of accountability, Gretchen
> could excite her students about grammar, help them become
> explorers of language, deepen their understanding of what nouns
> are all about, and then have that determined to be "ineffective"
> because these students don't produce more "accurate grammar" (your
> term for it) or don't score better on holistically assessed
> writing samples after a semester or a year. For an accurate
> control group, they would have to be denied real writing practice.
> Perhaps a better test would measure their knowledge about nouns as
> opposed to students who have only memorized "person, place, and
> thing" as a definition. Perhaps we should find a way to test their
> confidence as language explorers or their deeper interest in the
> subject. We could compare knowledge about language between a group
> studying language and another merely writing. Everything depends
> on a match between the testing and the goals.
> I don't know of a good empirical assessment of a knowledge
> based approach to grammar over a lengthy period of time. In both
> England and Australia, teachers now seem to believe that
> reintegrating language into the curriculum has been a good thing,
> but it's hard to test that out empirically. Perhaps the most
> direct test would measure knowledge about language, since that
> would be the central goal. We could then try to monitor how well
> that knowledge is put to work in reading, writing, speaking,
> listening, and so on. The problem is that we don't have a current
> consensus that knowing about language is a reasonable goal.
> Whether or not Gretchen's students can now produce more "accurate
> grammar" would be, I think, irrelevant, at least in the short
> term. Very real benefits will be ignored if they are not thought
> of as valuable goals in their own right.
> Knowledge about language does not come quickly and easily, and
> putting it to work is not easy as well. We need empirical testing
> that does not diminish the value of knowing about language and
> does not demand short term results.
> We need to envision a K-12 curriculum, not a single course with
> no other follow-up by other teachers. Once we do that, we can
> measure progress along the way.
>
> Craig
>
>
> Ronald Sheen wrote:
>> My comments on empirical evidence, Gretchen, were, as I think I
>> made clear, in no way an expression of doubt in your success. My
>> comments were both an implicit criticism of the proliferation of
>> how to teach grammar books without including any attempt to
>> demonstrate empirically that the approach proposed has been shown
>> to be the optimal choice, and a suggestion to you that you
>> consider doing some sort of comparative study yourself.in order
>> to justify the publication of a book.
>>
>> However, Craig Hancock claims that 'One of the problems with many
>> "empirical" studies of grammar is that the outcomes have been so
>> narrowly defined' and then, unfortunately, goes no further. The
>> whole area of comparative studies is a minefield waiting to blow
>> up in the face of anyone attempting them. This, however, is no
>> reason to dismiss them with the sort of unsupported comment that
>> Craig makes.
>>
>> A discussion group such as this one provides a marvellous forum
>> for teachers to engage in mutally helpful exchanges. This said,
>> however, following such exchanges quickly reveals that the
>> 'evidence ' provided is largely anecdotal and, therefore,
>> unreliable. Though comparative empirical studies are not always
>> reliable, it is undeniable that such studies rigorously carried
>> out are the only way in which we can arrive at reliable findings
>> which demonstrate for example that approach A is more effective
>> than approach B in situation X with students of type Y with aim Z.
>>
>> Now though the so-called action research carried out by
>> practising teachers may sound seductive, we all should realise
>> that the burden it imposes on teachers is enormous.
>> Consequently, before teachers embark on such a project, they
>> should make themselves aware of what is involved.
>>
>> Ron Sheen
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* Gretchen Lee <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> *To:* [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> *Sent:* Monday, September 10, 2007 6:46 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: Supportive empirical evidence was Silly,
>> rewarding grammar period
>>
>> In a message dated 9/10/2007 5:45:53 A.M. Pacific Daylight
>> Time, [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> writes:
>>
>> Though it is clearly desirable to trial approaches which
>> engage students' interest and involvement, one should not
>> confuse the latter with effectiveness in improving
>> studens' production of more accurate grammar.
>>
>> *Hello,*
>> **
>> *I absolutely agree that empirical evidence is necessary.
>> I'm a loooong way from a book. However, my students are
>> lucky to be from the upper middle class and in some cases,
>> the wealthy upper class. Their production of "correct"
>> grammar is very good, barring a few "between you and I" and
>> lesser/fewer problems. My aim is to engage them in analyzing
>> grammar and making it seem interesting at the same time. I
>> can't teach lesser/fewer with countable nouns if they don't
>> know (and don't care) what a countable noun is.*
>> **
>> *At this point the class is less about error
>> detection/prevention than it is about helping them find out
>> that grammar is fascinating. With a little luck, they will
>> stay interested enough to want to take a linguistics class in
>> college, rather than avoiding it at all costs. My little
>> class is obviously silly in many ways (see original subject
>> line). But for the first time in many of their lives,
>> grammar is a class to which they look forward. I hope that's
>> worthwhile.*
>> **
>> *Thanks,*
>> *Gretchen*
>>
>>
>>
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