I infrequently but consistently use 'needn't' and 'mustn't; in casual
conversation--
never in writing, even in letters to family.
Scott Catledge
--------------------------------------------------
From: "ATEG automatic digest system" <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 12:00 AM
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: ATEG Digest - 16 Nov 2011 to 18 Nov 2011 (#2011-202)
> There are 6 messages totalling 795 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
> 1. Mustn't/needn't (6)
>
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 11:46:59 -0500
> From: Jane Saral <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Mustn't/needn't
>
> --f46d043085605bb11b04b20518cf
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I have a niece in Germany married (for 15 years or so) to a
> German. She tutors children in English and asks the following question:
>
> "Do you ever use "needn't or mustn't" when you speak? Maybe it's British
> because it sure sounds weird to me. Kids have to learn this in 5th grade
> and to me it seems like unnecessary vocabulary..."
>
> Both sound normal to me. But that might be because I lived and taught in
> England for several years.
>
> Jane Saral
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
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>
> --f46d043085605bb11b04b20518cf
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <div>I have a niece in Germany married (for 15 years or so) to a
> German.=A0=
> =A0She=A0tutors children in English and asks the following question:</div>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>"Do you ever use "needn't or mustn't" when you
> =
> speak? Maybe it's British because it sure sounds weird to me. Kids
> have=
> to learn this in 5th grade and to me it seems like unnecessary
> vocabulary.=
> .." </div>
>
>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>Both sound normal to me.=A0But that might be because I lived and
> taugh=
> t in England for several years.=A0=A0=A0</div>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>Jane Saral</div>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --f46d043085605bb11b04b20518cf--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 11:03:20 -0600
> From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Mustn't/needn't
>
> --20cf3010e71f3c094904b205527a
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Jane, both words, if used in everyday conversation, would sound
> hyper-formal to my American intuition. It would catch me off guard
> particularly if a young person said it (I might even interpret it as
> sarcasm).
>
> John
>
> On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 10:46 AM, Jane Saral <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> I have a niece in Germany married (for 15 years or so) to a
>> German. She tutors children in English and asks the following question:
>>
>> "Do you ever use "needn't or mustn't" when you speak? Maybe it's British
>> because it sure sounds weird to me. Kids have to learn this in 5th grade
>> and to me it seems like unnecessary vocabulary..."
>>
>> Both sound normal to me. But that might be because I lived and taught in
>> England for several years.
>>
>> Jane Saral
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
>> leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
>
>
> --
> John
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --20cf3010e71f3c094904b205527a
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Jane, both words, if used in everyday conversation, would sound
> hyper-forma=
> l to my American intuition. It would catch me off guard particularly if a
> y=
> oung person said it (I might even interpret it as sarcasm).
> <br><br>John<br=
>>
>
> <br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 10:46 AM, Jane
> Saral=
> <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a
> href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">jane.saral@g=
> mail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
> =3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
>
> <div>I have a niece in Germany married (for 15 years or so) to a
> German.=A0=
> =A0She=A0tutors children in English and asks the following question:</div>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>"Do you ever use "needn't or mustn't" when you
> =
> speak? Maybe it's British because it sure sounds weird to me. Kids
> have=
> to learn this in 5th grade and to me it seems like unnecessary
> vocabulary.=
> .." </div>
>
>
>
>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>Both sound normal to me.=A0But that might be because I lived and
> taugh=
> t in England for several years.=A0=A0=A0</div>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>Jane Saral</div>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interf=
> ace at:
> <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
> target=3D"_b=
> lank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a>
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
> target=3D"_blank"=
>>http://ateg.org/</a>
> </p></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>John<br><br>
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> --20cf3010e71f3c094904b205527a--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:11:57 +0100
> From: Marie-Pierre Jouannaud <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Mustn't/needn't
>
> This presentation will give you a pretty good idea of the relative
> frequency of modals in speech and writing (there's no British/ American
> distinction though):
>
> http://www.slideshare.net/ebenimzo/modal-frequency-and-genre-6510671
>
> Marie
> France
>
>> I have a niece in Germany married (for 15 years or so) to a
>> German. She tutors children in English and asks the following question=
> :
>>
>> "Do you ever use "needn't or mustn't" when you speak? Maybe it's Britis=
> h
>> because it sure sounds weird to me. Kids have to learn this in 5th grad=
> e
>> and to me it seems like unnecessary vocabulary..."
>>
>> Both sound normal to me. But that might be because I lived and taught i=
> n
>> England for several years.
>>
>> Jane Saral
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interf=
> ace
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:35:31 +0000
> From: "Myers, Marshall" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Mustn't/needn't
>
> --_000_E6446B90F8DEEC4FB965A2BCC9E704CC18A3964Dfsmail1facultys_
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Jane,
>
> In American English, I agree that they sound normal to me, although not as
> =
> prevalent as other forms.
>
> Marshall
>
> p.s. If you look at the auxiliary forms (shall-should, can-could,etc),
> ther=
> e is no pairing for must, the other form disappearing after Chaucer.
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Jane Saral
> Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 11:47 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Mustn't/needn't
>
> I have a niece in Germany married (for 15 years or so) to a German. She
> tu=
> tors children in English and asks the following question:
>
> "Do you ever use "needn't or mustn't" when you speak? Maybe it's British
> be=
> cause it sure sounds weird to me. Kids have to learn this in 5th grade and
> =
> to me it seems like unnecessary vocabulary..."
>
> Both sound normal to me. But that might be because I lived and taught in
> En=
> gland for several years.
>
> Jane Saral
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> =
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave=
> the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --_000_E6446B90F8DEEC4FB965A2BCC9E704CC18A3964Dfsmail1facultys_
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> <body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
> <div class=3D"Section1">
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
> libri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D">Jane,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
> libri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
> libri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D">In American English, I agree that they sound normal to me,
> a=
> lthough not as prevalent as other forms.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
> libri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
> libri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D">Marshall<o:p></o:p></span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
> libri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
> libri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D">p.s. If you look at the auxiliary forms (shall-should,
> can-c=
> ould,etc), there is no pairing for must, the other form disappearing after
> =
> Chaucer.
> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
> libri","sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
> <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in
> =
> 0in 0in">
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span
> style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=
> ;Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
> style=3D"font-s=
> ize:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
> Assembly=
> for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jane Saral<br>
> <b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 18, 2011 11:47 AM<br>
> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
> <b>Subject:</b> Mustn't/needn't<o:p></o:p></span></p>
> </div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have a niece in Germany married (for 15 years or
> s=
> o) to a German. She tutors children in English and asks
> the=
> following question:<o:p></o:p></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">"Do you ever use "needn't or
> mustn't"=
> when you speak? Maybe it's British because it sure sounds weird to me.
> Kid=
> s have to learn this in 5th grade and to me it seems like unnecessary
> vocab=
> ulary..."
> <o:p></o:p></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Both sound normal to me. But that might be
> beca=
> use I lived and taught in England for several
> years. <o:p>=
> </o:p></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jane Saral<o:p></o:p></p>
> </div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
> th=
> e list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> an=
> d select "Join or leave the list"
> <o:p></o:p></p>
> <p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></p>
> </div>
> </body>
> </html>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --_000_E6446B90F8DEEC4FB965A2BCC9E704CC18A3964Dfsmail1facultys_--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 20:19:02 +0000
> From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Mustn't/needn't
>
> Marshall, Jane, et al.:
>
> "Mustn't" and "needn't" sound hyperformal to me as well, and I associate
> th=
> em older novels and spoken British English. I don't think U.S. speakers
> us=
> e "need" (as opposed to "need to") nearly as often in the semi-modal
> versio=
> n, so that might be factoring into the mix. But then, linguist's ideas
> abou=
> t usage can be just as wrong as anyone else's.
>
> Here are some data that may or may not be interesting (I got curious and
> we=
> nt into hunter-gatherer mode). They're ratios from COCA and the BYU
> version=
> of the British National Corpus (COCA's got a lot more words, period, so
> th=
> e base counts don't provide any direct evidence for American/British
> differ=
> ences; the ratios, however, might). I'm operating under the assumption
> that=
> the overall distribution of un-negated modals is different from that of
> ne=
> gated ones, and that the distribution of the contracted-negated version
> can=
> be different from that of the un-contracted negated one:
>
>
> COCA (U.S.)
>
> 811 (mustn't) to 3671 (must not) =3D .22
> 165749 (can't) to 101 (cannot) + 64615 (can not) =3D 2.56
> 1079 (needn't) to 3309 (need not) =3D .33
> 13780 (don't have to) to 939 (do not have to) =3D 14.68
>
> Needn't per million =3D .0000026975
> Mustn't per million =3D .0000020275
> Can't per million =3D 0004143725
>
> BNC (Britain)
>
> 911 (mustn't) to 1893 (must not) =3D .48
> 30298 (can't) to 21715 (can not) =3D 1.40
> 492 (needn't) to 1770 (need not) =3D .28
> 1750 (don't have to) to 366 (do not have to) =3D 4.78
>
> Needn't per million =3D .00000492
> Mustn't per million =3D .00000911
> Can't per million =3D .00030298
>
> British:American ratios (Assumes COCA is 400 mil words and BNC is 100 mil;
> =
> these figures are approximate; I don't know the exact number of words, but
> =
> it's unlikely to be exactly that even a figure):
>
> Needn't: 1.82
> Mustn't: 4.49
> Can't: 0.73
>
>
> The British seem to use "needn't" and "musn't" more often, with the
> imbalan=
> ce being particularly pronounced with "mustn't." Distribution across genre
> =
> is interesting. For the American corpus, "needn't" was found mostly in
> maga=
> zines and fiction, while "mustn't" was found almost exclusively in
> fiction.=
> There were very, very few examples in sampled speech. The BNC, on the
> othe=
> r hand, shows a hefty portion of "mustn'ts" occuring in spoken English,
> alt=
> hough a slightly higher proportion are in fiction; "needn't" shows a
> simila=
> r pattern, with fiction having proportionally more examples but spoken
> stil=
> l having a fair number.
>
>
> --- Bill Spruiell
>
> From: Marshall Myers
> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>=
>>
> Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar
> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:ATEG@LISTSE=
> RV.MUOHIO.EDU>>
> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:35:31 +0000
> To: ATEG English Grammar
> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
> HIO.EDU>>
> Subject: Re: Mustn't/needn't
>
> Jane,
>
> In American English, I agree that they sound normal to me, although not as
> =
> prevalent as other forms.
>
> Marshall
>
> p.s. If you look at the auxiliary forms (shall-should, can-could,etc),
> ther=
> e is no pairing for must, the other form disappearing after Chaucer.
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Jane Saral
> Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 11:47 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Mustn't/needn't
>
> I have a niece in Germany married (for 15 years or so) to a German. She
> tu=
> tors children in English and asks the following question:
>
> "Do you ever use "needn't or mustn't" when you speak? Maybe it's British
> be=
> cause it sure sounds weird to me. Kids have to learn this in 5th grade and
> =
> to me it seems like unnecessary vocabulary..."
>
> Both sound normal to me. But that might be because I lived and taught in
> En=
> gland for several years.
>
> Jane Saral
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> =
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave=
> the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> =
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave=
> the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 15:37:00 -0500
> From: Jane Saral <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Mustn't/needn't
>
> --f46d0407144bf8f04a04b2084e63
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Bill, this is amazing! Thank you so much!
> Jane
>
> On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 3:19 PM, Spruiell, William C
> <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>
>> Marshall, Jane, et al.:
>>
>> "Mustn't" and "needn't" sound hyperformal to me as well, and I associate
>> them older novels and spoken British English. I don't think U.S. speakers
>> use "need" (as opposed to "need to") nearly as often in the semi-modal
>> version, so that might be factoring into the mix. But then, linguist's
>> ideas about usage can be just as wrong as anyone else's.
>>
>> Here are some data that may or may not be interesting (I got curious and
>> went into hunter-gatherer mode). They're ratios from COCA and the BYU
>> version of the British National Corpus (COCA's got a lot more words,
>> period, so the base counts don't provide any direct evidence for
>> American/British differences; the ratios, however, might). I'm operating
>> under the assumption that the overall distribution of un-negated modals
>> is
>> different from that of negated ones, and that the distribution of the
>> contracted-negated version can be different from that of the
>> un-contracted
>> negated one:
>>
>>
>> COCA (U.S.)
>>
>> 811 (mustn't) to 3671 (must not) = .22
>> 165749 (can't) to 101 (cannot) + 64615 (can not) = 2.56
>> 1079 (needn't) to 3309 (need not) = .33
>> 13780 (don't have to) to 939 (do not have to) = 14.68
>>
>> Needn't per million = .0000026975
>> Mustn't per million = .0000020275
>> Can't per million = 0004143725
>>
>> BNC (Britain)
>>
>> 911 (mustn't) to 1893 (must not) = .48
>> 30298 (can't) to 21715 (can not) = 1.40
>> 492 (needn't) to 1770 (need not) = .28
>> 1750 (don't have to) to 366 (do not have to) = 4.78
>>
>> Needn't per million = .00000492
>> Mustn't per million = .00000911
>> Can't per million = .00030298
>>
>> British:American ratios (Assumes COCA is 400 mil words and BNC is 100
>> mil;
>> these figures are approximate; I don't know the exact number of words,
>> but
>> it's unlikely to be exactly that even a figure):
>>
>> Needn't: 1.82
>> Mustn't: 4.49
>> Can't: 0.73
>>
>>
>> The British seem to use "needn't" and "musn't" more often, with the
>> imbalance being particularly pronounced with "mustn't." Distribution
>> across
>> genre is interesting. For the American corpus, "needn't" was found mostly
>> in magazines and fiction, while "mustn't" was found almost exclusively in
>> fiction. There were very, very few examples in sampled speech. The BNC,
>> on
>> the other hand, shows a hefty portion of "mustn'ts" occuring in spoken
>> English, although a slightly higher proportion are in fiction; "needn't"
>> shows a similar pattern, with fiction having proportionally more examples
>> but spoken still having a fair number.
>>
>>
>> --- Bill Spruiell
>>
>> From: Marshall Myers
>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
>> >>
>> Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]<mailto:
>> [log in to unmask]>>
>> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:35:31 +0000
>> To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]<mailto:
>> [log in to unmask]>>
>> Subject: Re: Mustn't/needn't
>>
>> Jane,
>>
>> In American English, I agree that they sound normal to me, although not
>> as
>> prevalent as other forms.
>>
>> Marshall
>>
>> p.s. If you look at the auxiliary forms (shall-should, can-could,etc),
>> there is no pairing for must, the other form disappearing after Chaucer.
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
>> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jane Saral
>> Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 11:47 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Mustn't/needn't
>>
>> I have a niece in Germany married (for 15 years or so) to a German. She
>> tutors children in English and asks the following question:
>>
>> "Do you ever use "needn't or mustn't" when you speak? Maybe it's British
>> because it sure sounds weird to me. Kids have to learn this in 5th grade
>> and to me it seems like unnecessary vocabulary..."
>>
>> Both sound normal to me. But that might be because I lived and taught in
>> England for several years.
>>
>> Jane Saral
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
>> leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
>> leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
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>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --f46d0407144bf8f04a04b2084e63
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <div>Bill, this is amazing!=A0 Thank you so much!</div>
> <div>Jane<br><br></div>
> <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 3:19 PM, Spruiell,
> Willi=
> am C <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a
> href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">sprui1wc@c=
> mich.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
> <blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px
> 0.8ex=
> ; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">Marshall, Jane, et
> al.:<br><br>&=
> quot;Mustn't" and "needn't" sound hyperformal to me
> =
> as well, and I associate them older novels and spoken British English. I
> do=
> n't think U.S. speakers =A0use "need" (as opposed to
> "ne=
> ed to") nearly as often in the semi-modal version, so that might be
> fa=
> ctoring into the mix. But then, linguist's ideas about usage can be
> jus=
> t as wrong as anyone else's.<br>
>
> <br>Here are some data that may or may not be interesting (I got curious
> an=
> d went into hunter-gatherer mode). They're ratios from COCA and the
> BYU=
> version of the British National Corpus (COCA's got a lot more words,
> p=
> eriod, so the base counts don't provide any direct evidence for
> America=
> n/British differences; the ratios, however, might). I'm operating
> under=
> the assumption that the overall distribution of un-negated modals is
> diffe=
> rent from that of negated ones, and that the distribution of the
> contracted=
> -negated version can be different from that of the un-contracted negated
> on=
> e:<br>
>
> <br><br>COCA (U.S.)<br><br>=A0811 (mustn't) to 3671 (must not) =3D =A0
> =
> =A0.22<br>165749 (can't) to 101 (cannot) + 64615 (can not) =3D
> =A02.56<=
> br>1079 (needn't) =A0to 3309 (need not) =3D =A0 =A0.33<br>13780
> (don=
> 9;t have to) to 939 (do not have to) =3D 14.68<br>
>
> <br>Needn't per million =3D .0000026975<br>Mustn't per million =3D
> =
> .0000020275<br>Can't per million =3D 0004143725<br><br>BNC
> (Britain)<br=
>><br>911 (mustn't) to 1893 (must not) =3D =A0 .48<br>30298 (can't)
>>=
> to 21715 (can not) =3D 1.40<br>
>
> 492 (needn't) to 1770 (need not) =3D =A0 .28<br>1750 (don't have
> to=
> ) to 366 (do not have to) =3D 4.78<br><br>Needn't per million =3D
> .0000=
> 0492<br>Mustn't per million =3D .00000911<br>Can't per million =3D
> =
> =A0.00030298<br>
>
> <br>British:American ratios (Assumes COCA is 400 mil words and BNC is 100
> m=
> il; these figures are approximate; I don't know the exact number of
> wor=
> ds, but it's unlikely to be exactly that even a
> figure):<br><br>Needn&#=
> 39;t: 1.82<br>
>
> Mustn't: 4.49<br>Can't: 0.73<br><br><br>The British seem to use
> &qu=
> ot;needn't" and "musn't" more often, with the
> imbala=
> nce being particularly pronounced with "mustn't."
> Distributio=
> n across genre is interesting. For the American corpus,
> "needn't&q=
> uot; was found mostly in magazines and fiction, while
> "mustn't&quo=
> t; was found almost exclusively in fiction. There were very, very few
> examp=
> les in sampled speech. The BNC, on the other hand, shows a hefty portion
> of=
> "mustn'ts" occuring in spoken English, although a slightly
> h=
> igher proportion are in fiction; "needn't" shows a similar
> pa=
> ttern, with fiction having proportionally more examples but spoken still
> ha=
> ving a fair number.<br>
>
> <br><br>--- Bill Spruiell<br><br>From: Marshall Myers <<a
> href=3D"mailto=
> :[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><mailto:<a
> href=3D"ma=
> ilto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>>><br>Reply-To=
> : ATEG English Grammar <<a
> href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">ATEG=
> @LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU</a><mailto:<a
> href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
> DU">[log in to unmask]</a>>><br>
>
> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:35:31 +0000<br>To: ATEG English Grammar <<a
> hr=
> ef=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><mail=
> to:<a
> href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>=
> >><br>
>
> Subject: Re: Mustn't/needn't<br>
> <div class=3D"im"><br>Jane,<br><br>In American English, I agree that they
> s=
> ound normal to me, although not as prevalent as other
> forms.<br><br>Marshal=
> l<br><br>p.s. If you look at the auxiliary forms (shall-should,
> can-could,e=
> tc), there is no pairing for must, the other form disappearing after
> Chauce=
> r.<br>
>
> <br>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<a
> href=3D"m=
> ailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>] On Behalf Of
> =
> Jane Saral<br>Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 11:47 AM<br></div>To: <a
> href=
> =3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><mailto=
> :<a
> href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>&g=
> t;<br>
>
>
> <div>
> <div></div>
> <div class=3D"h5">Subject: Mustn't/needn't<br><br>I have a niece
> in=
> Germany married (for 15 years or so) to a German. =A0She tutors children
> i=
> n English and asks the following question:<br><br>"Do you ever use
> &qu=
> ot;needn't or mustn't" when you speak? Maybe it's British
> =
> because it sure sounds weird to me. Kids have to learn this in 5th grade
> an=
> d to me it seems like unnecessary vocabulary..."<br>
>
> <br>Both sound normal to me. But that might be because I lived and taught
> i=
> n England for several years.<br><br>Jane Saral<br>To join or leave this
> LIS=
> TSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: <a
> href=3D"http:/=
> /listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
> target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.=
> muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or leave the
> list&q=
> uot;<br>
>
> <br>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
> target=3D"_bl=
> ank">http://ateg.org/</a><br><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list,
> pleas=
> e visit the list's web interface at: <a
> href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.=
> edu/archives/ateg.html"
> target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archiv=
> es/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
>
> <br>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
> target=3D"_bl=
> ank">http://ateg.org/</a><br><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list,
> pleas=
> e visit the list's web interface at:<br>=A0 =A0 <a
> href=3D"http://lists=
> erv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
> target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio=
> .edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
>
> and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web
> s=
> ite at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
> target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><=
> br></div></div></blockquote></div><br>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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>
> --f46d0407144bf8f04a04b2084e63--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of ATEG Digest - 16 Nov 2011 to 18 Nov 2011 (#2011-202)
> ***********************************************************
>
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