Scott Catledge
Professor Emeritus
Colm Dubh H.E.
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 12:00 AM
I know that many, if not most of us tend to get a bit colloquial in email;
however, seeing the phrase "I agree with Janet calling" in lieu of "I agree
with Janet's calling" leads me to ask whether the sentence has a typo or
has the current teaching of English grammar dropped the usage of possessive
before gerund. I am rooting for the typo: I make enough of those myself.
At work I never signed off on a paper until I saw it in hard copy. One
would not believe the errors that I caught just in my own work. My
favorite was a comma in a legal paper specifying exactly the quality and
amount of work to be performed by a contractor on a multimillion dollar
contract that would have released the contractor from any obligation to
comply with the performance standards that governed the contract. Both
the contact specialist and the federal lawyer objected until I asked them
to sign an acknowledgement that they had read my warning and chose to
disregard it.
Scott
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 23 Feb 2009 to 24 Feb 2009 (#2009-44)
There are 9 messages totalling 1608 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. he was run over/he got run over (2)
2. On the importance of the competence-performance distinction for
language
teachers (5)
3. adjectives in a-
4. Speaking English
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 08:47:17 -0500
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: he was run over/he got run over
A few more observations about "got." In English, there is often an
ambiguity about whether a past participle after the "be" auxiliary is
adjective or part of the verb phrase. "The beer got drunk" is passive,
but what about "Paul got drunk" or "Paul was drunk"? "Paul got sick" is
not passive, but what about "Paul got lost"? We can substitue "become"
without feeling as though the meaning has changed. "Paul became lost."
Does that mean we are shifting "lost" to adjective status or was it an
adejective all along? "The child was lost during a shopping trip" seems
passive, but "That child is lost" does not, at least to me. But context
might change either.
Biber et. al. in the Longman grammar say "many of these verbs have a
different emphasis when used with the get-passive. With "be", they
express a state, such as the state of 'being married' or 'being
involved'. With "get", they are more dynamic, describing the process of
getting into that state" (Student version, pages 171-2). Think, for
example, of the difference between "was involved" and "got involved."
The second certainly implies some sort of volition on the part of the
actor.
"He was so stupid. He got fired on the first day."
"He was so unlucky. He was fired on the first day."
To me, the "got" goes best with the notion that "he" did something to
deserve it.
Sometimes we get hung up trying to classify a word or phrase in one
category or another, forgetting that our categories may be limiting
what we are able to understand.
The language is under no obligation to conform to our ideas about it.
Craig
> Bill,
>
> On "gotta," informally, and especially in children, you can hear "Do I
> gotta?" with a little bit of a whine to it.
>
> These aren't very serial verb like. In the West African instantiation,
> serial verbs constructions typically have a single subject, a single
> auxiliary, but multiple intransitive and transitive verbs. In the usual
> cases, verbs are used to mark valence, that is, they're used like case
> markers and prepositions in languages like German and English. Where we
> would typically have one verb with multiple arguments, as in
>
> My brother brought me home a book for my child
>
> where "me" is benefactive, "home" is locative, "a book" is object, and "my
> daughter" is dative, Yoruba, spoken by about 20 million people in Nigeria
> and Benin, would have
> (without some important vowel and tone diacritics thanks to ASCII)
>
> egbon mi ba mi mu iwe wa si ile fun omo
> mi
> elder-sibling my help me pick-up-light-object book come to house give
> child my
>
> (I fear email will mess up spacing on this. Treat anything hyphenated as
> a single gloss for a single word.) Ba, mu, wa, si, and fun are all verbs,
> each of which has independent lexical functions as verbs by themselves.
> There is some debate as to whether Yoruba has prepositions at all, and I
> tend to think it doesn't although there are two words that may be shifting
> in that direction. Si "to" is clearly a verb here even though it glosses
> as "in."
>
> I could put a negative "ko" before "ba" and get "didn't" or "a" before
> "ba" and get "will" or "ti" before "ba" and get perfect aspect, or even
> combinations of these and other auxiliaries.
>
> Serial verbs can also be used for multi-event sentences, like
>
> I went to the market, bought meat, brought it home, cooked it, and ate it.
>
> Mo lo si igboro ra eran mu wa si ile se jeun.
> I go to market buy meat pick-up-light-object come to house cook eat.
>
> This sentence too allows negatives and auxiliaries only before the first
> verb, "lo."
>
> The language does have dependency marking on verbs, so "I want to go"
> would have a lengthening of the verb for want with a high tone on the
> vowel:
>
> Mo fe e lo
> I want to go
>
> which serves as something like an infinitive marker in the language.
>
> Yoruba does not have sentence coordination of the sort English has, using
> a word that can conjoin things of the same category, nouns, adjectives,
> verbs, adverbs, etc. It does have a particle that goes in the auxiliary
> that means something like "and then," but there's no actual "and" for
> verbs, verb phrases, or clauses.
>
> What distinguishes serial verb constructions from complement structures is
> that serial verbs have no morphological marking to show their
> relationship. Order is important, but no morphological marking like for
> the "want to" construction.
>
> Just as an aside, in Yoruba, a verb can only be a consonant, a vowel, and
> a tone, with a few narrowly defined classes of exception. With 18
> consonants, 10 vowels, 3 tones, and some phonotactic constraints, the
> total mathematically possible set of verbs comes to 510. Of these, only
> about 335 actually occur. Yoruba uses serial verb collocations, like
>
> Fi enikan si ile
> Take someone to ground (different final vowel and tone than "ile" "house")
>
> Which means "divorce someone" to express a very flexible range of
> meanings. "Fi si ile" can also mean simply "put it down."
>
> And some serial verbs are used adverbially:
>
> Mo ti se ise tan
> I perfect do work complete
> I've finished the work.
>
> There are, of course, variations on these structures in other languages,
> and additional constructions that don't occur in Yoruba, but this covers
> the bulk of serial verb constructions of the West African and Atlantic
> creole varieties. Serial verbs are also found in east and southeast Asia
> and New Guinea (the island), but many of these languages are almost purely
> analytic, with virtually no inflectional or derivational morphology, so
> they have somewhat different properties.
>
> Perhaps something like "come give me a hug" would be like a serial verb
> construction, but there aren't many other structures in English that would
> correspond to serial verbs.
>
> Herb
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: 2009-02-23 18:48
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: he was run over/he got run over
>
> Dear All:
>
> I've been fiddling with these constructions, and have now become firmly
> ambivalent about what to call parts of them. The test I usually use for
> "full auxiliary status" is checking to see if the helping verb can show
> up in front of the subject in a question. "Get" in the get-passive can't
> do that, and neither can "got to" in its quasimodal use -- but the
> quasipassive 'get' isn't the same as 'get to,' and I don't want to call
> it a quasimodal.
>
> Also, you can't get a do-form showing up for deontic "got to" (*Does he
> gotta go?), although you can with the otherwise-similar-seeming "have
> to" (Does he hafta go?). They *are* possible with the get-passive (Did
> he get run over?), which implies that 'get' should be treated as the
> main verb. Do-forms are also possible with the "get to" that implies
> permission (Does he get to go?" but I'd think that's just evidence that
> the second is more generally "Get X" with X as an infinitive.
>
> Herb -- how serial verb-ish are these? I know English isn't officially
> supposed to have those but from my very limited, and dated, knowledge of
> Cambodian, the pattern certainly seems familiar. I seem to remember
> you've mentioned SVCs, but apologies if I've switched the context on it.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Myers, Marshall
> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 4:46 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: he was run over/he got run over
>
> Dave,
>
> I was the one suggesting that the construction may be a "get" passive.
>
> Like a garden variety passive, the actor in the sentence is either
> hidden or could be in a "by-phrase." "He got run over (by a truck.)"
>
> When the object of the "by-phrase" becomes the subject of the converted
> sentence, like the "to be" form in the garden variety passive, the
> converted sentence drops the auxiliary: Joe was run over by a truck"
> becomes "The truck ran over Joe." And "He got run over by a truck"
> becomes "The truck ran over him." Notice also that in both cases of the
> conversion of both types of passives, the verb then is marked for tense
> (obviously, it has to be).
>
> I'm not suggesting any generalizations beyond these, but, as I
> understand it, the "get passive" does bear some credence in some
> grammarians' minds.
>
> In other situations, I can understand why "get" can act like an
> auxiliary.
>
> Marshall
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of David Kehe
> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 1:16 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: he was run over/he got run over
>
> Scott,
> I agree with Janet calling "got" a helping verb. I tell my students
> that passive voice consists of an auxiliary verb and past participle.
> I'd be interested to know why you and Patty would consider "got" a
> model.
>
> Dave
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Patricia
> Lafayllve
> Sent: Fri 2/20/2009 8:58 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: he was run over/he got run over
>
>
>
> Scott-
>
>
>
> I can see the "logic" of calling it a passive with "got" as the modal,
> but I'd probably let the student know that the construction was
> "informal" and make sure they know how to construct a passive using
> "formal" methods (ie "was run over"). Does that make sense? I am
> posting while jet-lagged, here...
>
>
>
> -patty
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 10:33 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: he was run over/he got run over
>
>
>
> List,
>
> My previous message on this topic delivered itself before I had finished
> it. Here is the complete message.
>
>
>
> Recently, a student wrote "he got run over." This seems to be a common
> way of expressing the passive.
>
>
>
> Would you characterize this as a passive? Would you analyze "run" as
> the verb of the sentence and "got" as a modal operating like "was" in a
> normally constructed (was run over) passive?
>
> Scott Woods
>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 08:22:38 -0700
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: he was run over/he got run over
The passive is traditionally thought of as formed with be + passive partici=
ple of transitive verb. The form with get + participle would be a periphra=
stic equivalent having a modal sense including the idea of volition or inte=
nt. At the risk of widening this thread to other verb phrases with modal =
sense, ATEGers might consider how they approach the following expressions. =
Do we leave them out of the formal styles that are most acceptable in so m=
any writing assignments?=20=20
I think that there are quite a few expressions in English that might be cla=
ssed as periphrastic equivalents to the five modal verbs of a) will/would, =
b) shall/should, c) can/could, d) may/might, and e) must. These seem to fa=
ll into eight formal categories so that there could be as many as 40 possib=
ilities. Some must fall together, as there are only the following 20 kinds=
that I have noted. Perhaps ATEGers can suggest others or some other class=
ification or mistakes in these.
1) a) like to go, want to go; b) ought to go; d) get to go; e) have to go, =
need to go, deserve to go;=20
2) a) be to go; e) be to go;=20
3) a) be willing to go; b) be supposed to go; c) be able to go, be free to =
go; d) be privileged to go;=20
4) a) be about to go;=20
5) a) be going to go, be fixing to go;=20
6) b) be obliged to go; c) be allowed to go; d) be allowed to go; e) be mad=
e to go;=20
7) e) have got to go, had ought to go;=20
8) a) had rather go; e) had better go, had best go.=20=20
Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 6:47 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: he was run over/he got run over
A few more observations about "got." In English, there is often an
ambiguity about whether a past participle after the "be" auxiliary is
adjective or part of the verb phrase. "The beer got drunk" is passive,
but what about "Paul got drunk" or "Paul was drunk"? "Paul got sick" is
not passive, but what about "Paul got lost"? We can substitue "become"
without feeling as though the meaning has changed. "Paul became lost."
Does that mean we are shifting "lost" to adjective status or was it an
adejective all along? "The child was lost during a shopping trip" seems
passive, but "That child is lost" does not, at least to me. But context
might change either.
Biber et. al. in the Longman grammar say "many of these verbs have a
different emphasis when used with the get-passive. With "be", they
express a state, such as the state of 'being married' or 'being
involved'. With "get", they are more dynamic, describing the process of
getting into that state" (Student version, pages 171-2). Think, for
example, of the difference between "was involved" and "got involved."
The second certainly implies some sort of volition on the part of the
actor.
"He was so stupid. He got fired on the first day."
"He was so unlucky. He was fired on the first day."
To me, the "got" goes best with the notion that "he" did something to
deserve it.
Sometimes we get hung up trying to classify a word or phrase in one
category or another, forgetting that our categories may be limiting
what we are able to understand.
The language is under no obligation to conform to our ideas about it.
Craig
> Bill,
>
> On "gotta," informally, and especially in children, you can hear "Do I
> gotta?" with a little bit of a whine to it.
>
> These aren't very serial verb like. In the West African instantiation,
> serial verbs constructions typically have a single subject, a single
> auxiliary, but multiple intransitive and transitive verbs. In the usual
> cases, verbs are used to mark valence, that is, they're used like case
> markers and prepositions in languages like German and English. Where we
> would typically have one verb with multiple arguments, as in
>
> My brother brought me home a book for my child
>
> where "me" is benefactive, "home" is locative, "a book" is object, and "my
> daughter" is dative, Yoruba, spoken by about 20 million people in Nigeria
> and Benin, would have
> (without some important vowel and tone diacritics thanks to ASCII)
>
> egbon mi ba mi mu iwe wa si ile fun omo
> mi
> elder-sibling my help me pick-up-light-object book come to house give
> child my
>
> (I fear email will mess up spacing on this. Treat anything hyphenated as
> a single gloss for a single word.) Ba, mu, wa, si, and fun are all verbs,
> each of which has independent lexical functions as verbs by themselves.
> There is some debate as to whether Yoruba has prepositions at all, and I
> tend to think it doesn't although there are two words that may be shifting
> in that direction. Si "to" is clearly a verb here even though it glosses
> as "in."
>
> I could put a negative "ko" before "ba" and get "didn't" or "a" before
> "ba" and get "will" or "ti" before "ba" and get perfect aspect, or even
> combinations of these and other auxiliaries.
>
> Serial verbs can also be used for multi-event sentences, like
>
> I went to the market, bought meat, brought it home, cooked it, and ate it.
>
> Mo lo si igboro ra eran mu wa si ile se jeun.
> I go to market buy meat pick-up-light-object come to house cook eat.
>
> This sentence too allows negatives and auxiliaries only before the first
> verb, "lo."
>
> The language does have dependency marking on verbs, so "I want to go"
> would have a lengthening of the verb for want with a high tone on the
> vowel:
>
> Mo fe e lo
> I want to go
>
> which serves as something like an infinitive marker in the language.
>
> Yoruba does not have sentence coordination of the sort English has, using
> a word that can conjoin things of the same category, nouns, adjectives,
> verbs, adverbs, etc. It does have a particle that goes in the auxiliary
> that means something like "and then," but there's no actual "and" for
> verbs, verb phrases, or clauses.
>
> What distinguishes serial verb constructions from complement structures is
> that serial verbs have no morphological marking to show their
> relationship. Order is important, but no morphological marking like for
> the "want to" construction.
>
> Just as an aside, in Yoruba, a verb can only be a consonant, a vowel, and
> a tone, with a few narrowly defined classes of exception. With 18
> consonants, 10 vowels, 3 tones, and some phonotactic constraints, the
> total mathematically possible set of verbs comes to 510. Of these, only
> about 335 actually occur. Yoruba uses serial verb collocations, like
>
> Fi enikan si ile
> Take someone to ground (different final vowel and tone than "ile" "house")
>
> Which means "divorce someone" to express a very flexible range of
> meanings. "Fi si ile" can also mean simply "put it down."
>
> And some serial verbs are used adverbially:
>
> Mo ti se ise tan
> I perfect do work complete
> I've finished the work.
>
> There are, of course, variations on these structures in other languages,
> and additional constructions that don't occur in Yoruba, but this covers
> the bulk of serial verb constructions of the West African and Atlantic
> creole varieties. Serial verbs are also found in east and southeast Asia
> and New Guinea (the island), but many of these languages are almost purely
> analytic, with virtually no inflectional or derivational morphology, so
> they have somewhat different properties.
>
> Perhaps something like "come give me a hug" would be like a serial verb
> construction, but there aren't many other structures in English that would
> correspond to serial verbs.
>
> Herb
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: 2009-02-23 18:48
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: he was run over/he got run over
>
> Dear All:
>
> I've been fiddling with these constructions, and have now become firmly
> ambivalent about what to call parts of them. The test I usually use for
> "full auxiliary status" is checking to see if the helping verb can show
> up in front of the subject in a question. "Get" in the get-passive can't
> do that, and neither can "got to" in its quasimodal use -- but the
> quasipassive 'get' isn't the same as 'get to,' and I don't want to call
> it a quasimodal.
>
> Also, you can't get a do-form showing up for deontic "got to" (*Does he
> gotta go?), although you can with the otherwise-similar-seeming "have
> to" (Does he hafta go?). They *are* possible with the get-passive (Did
> he get run over?), which implies that 'get' should be treated as the
> main verb. Do-forms are also possible with the "get to" that implies
> permission (Does he get to go?" but I'd think that's just evidence that
> the second is more generally "Get X" with X as an infinitive.
>
> Herb -- how serial verb-ish are these? I know English isn't officially
> supposed to have those but from my very limited, and dated, knowledge of
> Cambodian, the pattern certainly seems familiar. I seem to remember
> you've mentioned SVCs, but apologies if I've switched the context on it.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Myers, Marshall
> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 4:46 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: he was run over/he got run over
>
> Dave,
>
> I was the one suggesting that the construction may be a "get" passive.
>
> Like a garden variety passive, the actor in the sentence is either
> hidden or could be in a "by-phrase." "He got run over (by a truck.)"
>
> When the object of the "by-phrase" becomes the subject of the converted
> sentence, like the "to be" form in the garden variety passive, the
> converted sentence drops the auxiliary: Joe was run over by a truck"
> becomes "The truck ran over Joe." And "He got run over by a truck"
> becomes "The truck ran over him." Notice also that in both cases of the
> conversion of both types of passives, the verb then is marked for tense
> (obviously, it has to be).
>
> I'm not suggesting any generalizations beyond these, but, as I
> understand it, the "get passive" does bear some credence in some
> grammarians' minds.
>
> In other situations, I can understand why "get" can act like an
> auxiliary.
>
> Marshall
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of David Kehe
> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 1:16 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: he was run over/he got run over
>
> Scott,
> I agree with Janet calling "got" a helping verb. I tell my students
> that passive voice consists of an auxiliary verb and past participle.
> I'd be interested to know why you and Patty would consider "got" a
> model.
>
> Dave
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Patricia
> Lafayllve
> Sent: Fri 2/20/2009 8:58 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: he was run over/he got run over
>
>
>
> Scott-
>
>
>
> I can see the "logic" of calling it a passive with "got" as the modal,
> but I'd probably let the student know that the construction was
> "informal" and make sure they know how to construct a passive using
> "formal" methods (ie "was run over"). Does that make sense? I am
> posting while jet-lagged, here...
>
>
>
> -patty
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 10:33 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: he was run over/he got run over
>
>
>
> List,
>
> My previous message on this topic delivered itself before I had finished
> it. Here is the complete message.
>
>
>
> Recently, a student wrote "he got run over." This seems to be a common
> way of expressing the passive.
>
>
>
> Would you characterize this as a passive? Would you analyze "run" as
> the verb of the sentence and "got" as a modal operating like "was" in a
> normally constructed (was run over) passive?
>
> Scott Woods
>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 14:06:40 -0500
From: Peter Adams <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: On the importance of the competence-performance distinction for
language teachers
--Apple-Mail-3--502837358
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Craig writes, "If our primary concern is with error, then a great deal
never surfaces, for teacher or student alike."
I worry that to some on the list this may sound like we should not be
concerned with surface error. Based on past discussions with Craig,
I'm fairly certain he doesn't mean this, but only means that to limit
our concern to surface error is to leave out much that is rich and
interesting about how the language works. I would argue that helping
students gain control over "error" is an important task, that we
should not neglect, but that it certainly isn't the whole task.
Peter Adams
On Feb 23, 2009, at 12:22 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:
> f our primary concern is with error, then a great deal never
> surfaces, for teacher or student alike.
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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webki=
t-line-break: after-white-space; ">Craig writes, "If our primary concern
is=20=
with error, then a great deal never surfaces, for teacher or student
alike."=
<div><br></div><div>I worry that to some on the list this may sound
l=
ike we should not be concerned with surface error. Based on past
discu=
ssions with Craig, I'm fairly certain he doesn't mean this, but only means
t=
hat to <i>limit</i> our concern to surface error is to leave out much that
i=
s rich and interesting about how the language works. I would argue
tha=
t helping students gain control over "error" is an important task, that we
s=
hould not neglect, but that it certainly isn't the whole
task.</div><div><br=
></div><div>Peter
Adams<br><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>=
On Feb 23, 2009, at 12:22 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:</div><br
class=3D"Apple-i=
nterchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span
class=3D"Apple-style-spa=
n" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Hel=
vetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weig=
ht: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2;
text-al=
ign: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
wido=
ws: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-bo=
rder-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;
-webki=
t-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; ">f our primary
conc=
ern is with error, then a great deal never surfaces, for teacher or
student=20=
alike.</span></blockquote></div><br></div></div></body></html>=3D
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:18:08 -0700
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: adjectives in a-
--_000_C62F596A20AB834B86375CE75059D13724F3B7D434MBX01ldschurc_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There was discussion a short time ago about the non-attributive use of cert=
ain adjectives that beqin with the prefix a-. I couldn't think at the time=
what article I had recently read about this phenomenon, but came across it=
this morning: Julia Schl=FCter, "Constraints on the attributive use of 'pr=
edicative-only' adjectives" in Graeme Trousdale, Nikolas Gisborne, ed., Top=
ics in English Linguistics: Constructional Approaches to English Grammar (M=
outon de Gruyter, Berlin, 2008) pp. 145-179. Some of her conclusions may b=
e of some interest.
1) aghast, agog, aloof, askew appear occasionally in attr. position
2) adrift, alive ashamed, averse, awake, aware, awry appear more often=
in attr.position when premodified
3) afloat, afraid, akin, asleep appear in attr. position only when pre=
modified
Premodification includes use with a prefix (like un-), compounding, and mod=
ification by an adverb, which complexity in the attr. construction has been=
available only since the nineteenth century. The linguistic explanations =
available are based on 1) semantics, and 2) phonetic (stress clashes). Bot=
h forces were shown to be at work in this construction, sometimes one, some=
times the other. This seems to support a lexically based theory of explan=
ation.
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>There was discussion a short time ago about the
non-attributive use of certain adjectives that beqin with the prefix a-.=A0=
I
couldn’t think at the time what article I had recently read about this
phenomenon, but came across it this morning: Julia Schl=FCter, “Const=
raints
on the attributive use of ‘predicative-only’ adjectives” =
in
Graeme Trousdale, Nikolas Gisborne, ed., Topics in English Linguistics:
Constructional Approaches to English Grammar (Mouton de Gruyter, Berlin, 20=
08)
pp. 145-179.=A0 Some of her conclusions may be of some interest.=A0 <o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&n=
bsp;
</span></span><![endif]>aghast, agog, aloof, askew appear occasionally in a=
ttr.
position<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&n=
bsp;
</span></span><![endif]>adrift, alive ashamed, averse, awake, aware, awry a=
ppear
more often in attr.position when premodified<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>3)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&n=
bsp;
</span></span><![endif]>afloat, afraid, akin, asleep appear in attr. positi=
on
only when premodified<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Premodification includes use with a prefix (like un-),=
compounding,
and modification by an adverb, which complexity in the attr. construction h=
as
been available only since the nineteenth century.=A0 The linguistic explana=
tions
available are based on 1) semantics, and 2) phonetic (stress clashes).=A0 B=
oth
forces were shown to be at work in this construction, sometimes one, someti=
mes
the other.=A0 =A0This seems to support a lexically based theory of explanat=
ion.=A0 <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<DIV>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt';font-family:'"Helvetic=
a","Tahoma","Arial","sans-serif"'><font color=3D"#666666"><br><br> NOTICE: =
This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may=
contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, =
use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended =
recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies =
of the original message.</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</DIV></body>
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--_000_C62F596A20AB834B86375CE75059D13724F3B7D434MBX01ldschurc_--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 15:14:01 -0600
From: Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: On the importance of the competence-performance distinction for
language teachers
Bill and Craig,
Thank you both for your thoughtful replies to my post on the importance
of the competence-performance for language teachers.
I used sentence (1), a real sentence written by an L1 Chinese student
I'm teaching this semester.
1) They are not agree with the Input Hypothesis.
I proposed that the error in (1) is not with "are" but the student's
underlying representation of the work "agree." The student told be for
her "agree" is an adjective. Among other things, I noted correcting
"are" and replacing with "do" would not really help this student because
such a correction does not provide her with the explanation why the
"are" is incorrect here.
Craig noted:
It's certainly good to be reminded that merely correcting the surface
errors on a text isn't good pedagogical practice. I'm not sure
"competence" and "performance" are the best terms to account for a
connection between what a student does and what he/she understands, but
it all makes sense.=20
***
Of course, he is right. In this case the "surface error" -- "are"
should be "do" is not correct. I wish he had provided his understanding
of why the student wrote (1) in the first place.
In this regard, Bill's response is more interesting. I wish he had
written more.
Bill notes correctly with the competence/performance distinction.=20
>>> "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> 2/23/2009 12:56 PM >>>
If you're claiming that only a competence/performance-distinguishing
model can deal with those phenomena, you're wrong. If you're claiming
that we can deal with them only by talking about what speakers seem to
think/assume/believe about a language -- i.e., that we have to make some
statements about internal states if we're making other than purely
descriptive statements -- you're right. But *lots* of theories,
including most functionalist ones, are in the same camp you are on that
one.
****
He is, of course, right that other theories posit internal states that
are the result of input and not the result of some innate knowledge of
principles of language. I tried to address such an alternative
explanation in my original post. I want to consider the alternative
account that Bill provides:
I should probably clarify my comments a bit. You'll notice toward the
end of that earlier post, I throw in the following:
>>I think functionalists in general don=E2=80=99t mind claiming that
performance=20
>>(including comprehension in a social context, rather than just=20
>>production) partly creates competence as an epiphenomenon...<<
The "partly" was there by intention, as was the entailment that
competence exists (you can't create something that is
nonexistent....well, barring certain interpretations of null-elements).
Obviously, native speakers do have the ability to recognize if novel
strings are acceptable in their language or not. Production and
comprehension appear to conform to certain norms, and it's hard to deal
with that without positing some kind of "rest state" system (not
impossible, since I *think* Eco's semiotics manages it, but I'm by no
means positive). Functionalists tend to think the fundamental
characteristics of that system are determined by general cognitive
constraints together with *meaningful* interaction with other speakers,
rather than by the operation of a specific-only-to-language module on a
semantically neutral set of input strings. If for "competence" we
substitute "how one expects the language to act, given what's gone
before," we've got something closer to the functionalist conception (or
at least, my version of it).
***
I want to consider Bill's functionalist explanation for how we come to
what we know about language and what that means for BOTH the student and
the teacher's knowledge of the language.
If "meaningful" interaction and general cognitive constraints are what
determines what we know about language , we have to be puzzled why any
student would write (1). We can be pretty confident that a student in
the States would never encounter such a sentence like (1) with just
"agree." As I noted in my original post, (2) and (3) are possible.
(2) They are not agreeing with the Input Hypothesis.
(3) They are not in agreement with the Input Hypothesis.
Because, I think, a functionalist explanation tries to avoid abstract
representations, my explanation of why the student wrote (1) -- agree is
an adjective - is not a possible functionalist explanation. I'm not a
functionalists, so here is my question: What are the general cognitive
constraints operating in "meaningful interaction," that resulted in this
student concluding agree is an adjective? I wish I could read a
plausible functionalist account.=20
Now let's consider the teacher's response to (1) from the functionalist
explanation. As native speakers we are confronted with a sentence we
have never encountered before in any meaningful interaction. Although
we understand it, we recognize it is ungrammatical because ARE should be
DO. So, we cross out ARE and write DO. If the only thing we know about
language is through meaningful interaction and general cognitive
constraints, how do we even suppose that (1) is the result of the writer
having the wrong category for "agree." Those categories are merely the
result of an epiphenomona of the frequencies we have unconsciously noted
in the language. As a teacher considering this string and whose
knowledge of English is the result of interactions, we also realize that
(1) is just as likely the result of the student meaning to write (2) and
(3). We now have to decide how many possibilities we put on the
student's paper to indicate why (1) is not English. Again, I'm not a
functionalist, so I feel very uncomfortable providing explanations for a
perspective I don't know very well. I want to be corrected if I have
misstated anything.
I am a language teacher; I teach both native and non-native speakers of
English and I teach about the nature of language to pre-service teachers
who will be teaching both native and non-native speakers. I have to
respond to texts that contain strings that no mature writer would write.
I have tried to show here how the assumption that our knowledge of
language (both mine as a teacher and that of my students) has both a
competence and performance distinction informs my responses.
I suspect that those who deny the competence-performance distinction
respond to texts differently. I'm trying to figure what the differences
are to evaluate which view of language is more helpful to me as a=20
teacher.
Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri =20
=20
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 16:33:18 -0500
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: On the importance of the competence-performance distinction for
language teachers
Peter,
I think you and I are in agreement in lots of ways, so I welcome this
formulation of it. I would tend to rephrase it a little. I believe it's
important for students to gain a working feel for Standard English and
for the routine conventions of writing, including punctuation. I don't
think that just "happens", but I also don't think just correcting
errors on a paper is an effective approach. A more operative question
might be "what do students need to know" to accomplish those goals.
Writing effectively involves moving closer and closer to an unreachable
target. In that larger sense, error will always be a part of it. We need
ways to talk about revising sentences, looking at grammatical choices
and their contribution to the unfolding purposes of the text. If we
reduce gramamr to "error", we will miss that.
I am trying to teach writing without "error" or "correct" in the
vocabulary. Language can be grammatical or ungrammatical, standard or
non-standard, effective or ineffective, and I try to use those as
separate lenses.
But I would agree very much with your premises. If our students are
expected to gain some facility with standard English, then we should
find out how to get them there. If they are expected to punctuate
effectively, then we should try to figure out the best ways to help them
accomplish that. If they are expected to be able to present their own
views within the ongoing conversation of a discipline, then we should
know how to mentor that process as well.
What I like about what you're doing (how's the book coming?) is that
you are trying to demystify the process. As you work that out over
time, I expect that many of us will find it useful,
Craig
Craig writes, "If our primary concern is with error, then a great deal
> never surfaces, for teacher or student alike."
>
> I worry that to some on the list this may sound like we should not be
> concerned with surface error. Based on past discussions with Craig,
> I'm fairly certain he doesn't mean this, but only means that to limit
> our concern to surface error is to leave out much that is rich and
> interesting about how the language works. I would argue that helping
> students gain control over "error" is an important task, that we
> should not neglect, but that it certainly isn't the whole task.
>
> Peter Adams
>
>
>
> On Feb 23, 2009, at 12:22 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>
>> f our primary concern is with error, then a great deal never
>> surfaces, for teacher or student alike.
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
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>
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>
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:59:17 -0800
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Speaking English
--0-1972103869-1235512757=:45000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
After an exhaustive review of the research literature, here's the final wor=
d on nutrition and health.:=20
=A0=20
1. Japanese eat very little fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than us.=20
2. Mexicans eat a lot of fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than us.=20
3. Chinese drink very little red wine and suffer fewer heart attacks than u=
s.=20
4. Italians drink excessive amounts of red wine and suffer fewer heart atta=
cks than us.=20
5. Germans drink beer and eat lots of sausages and fats and suffer fewer he=
art attacks than us.=20
6. The French eat foie-gras, full fat cheese and drink red wine and suffer =
fewer heart attacks than us=20
=A0=20
CONCLUSION: Eat and drink what you like. Speaking English is apparently wha=
t kills you. =0A=0A=0A
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--0-1972103869-1235512757=:45000
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: #0d0d0d; FONT-FAMILY: i=
nherit">After an exhaustive review of the research literature, here's the f=
inal word on nutrition and health.: </SPAN><BR><FONT face=3Dinherit color=
=3D#0d0d0d><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: #0d0d0d; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"> </SPA=
N></FONT><FONT face=3Dinherit><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: inherit"> </SPAN>=
</FONT><BR><FONT face=3Dinherit color=3D#0d0d0d><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: #0d0d=
0d; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">1. Japanese eat very little fat and suffer fewer =
<SPAN class=3Dyshortcuts id=3Dlw_1235485770_17>heart attacks</SPAN> than us=
. </SPAN></FONT><BR><FONT face=3Dinherit color=3D#0d0d0d><SPAN style=3D"COL=
OR: #0d0d0d; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">2. Mexicans eat a lot of fat and suffer =
fewer heart attacks than us. </SPAN></FONT><BR><FONT face=3Dinherit color=
=3D#0d0d0d><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: #0d0d0d; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">3. Chinese =
drink very little <SPAN class=3Dyshortcuts
id=3Dlw_1235485770_18>red wine</SPAN> and suffer fewer heart attacks than =
us. </SPAN></FONT><BR><FONT face=3Dinherit color=3D#0d0d0d><SPAN style=3D"C=
OLOR: #0d0d0d; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">4. Italians drink excessive amounts of=
red wine and suffer fewer heart attacks than us. </SPAN></FONT><BR><FONT f=
ace=3Dinherit color=3D#0d0d0d><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: #0d0d0d; FONT-FAMILY: i=
nherit">5. Germans drink beer and eat lots of sausages and fats and suffer =
fewer heart attacks than us. </SPAN></FONT><BR><FONT face=3Dinherit color=
=3D#0d0d0d><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: #0d0d0d; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">6. The Fren=
ch eat foie-gras, full fat cheese and drink red wine and suffer fewer heart=
attacks than us </SPAN></FONT><BR><FONT face=3Dinherit color=3D#0d0d0d><SP=
AN style=3D"COLOR: #0d0d0d; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT=
face=3Dinherit><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: inherit"> </SPAN></FONT><BR><FO=
NT face=3Dinherit color=3D#0d0d0d><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: #0d0d0d; FONT-FAMIL=
Y: inherit">CONCLUSION: Eat and
drink what you like. Speaking English is apparently what kills you. </SPAN=
></FONT></td></tr></table><br>=0A=0A=0A=0A
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-1972103869-1235512757=:45000--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 19:42:16 -0500
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: On the importance of the competence-performance distinction for
language teachers
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 23:39:12 -0500
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: On the importance of the competence-performance distinction for
language teachers
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Cg==
------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 23 Feb 2009 to 24 Feb 2009 (#2009-44)
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