Craig,

First of all, it feels really good to be back into another deep, meaningful
discussion with you about issues that we agree on from a macro, if not
always from a micro perspective.

You are absolutely right, of course, that the more experience students have
with grammatical concepts and explorations, the easier it becomes.  And
language acquisition without social intercourse simply does not occur.
That being said, however, once a language is acquired, its functioning is
relegated to very poorly understood processes well beyond the reach of
one's conscious brain.  Students have to learn how to access their language
competency (insofar as we know how to teach it) and the underlying
principles that govern its functioning (insofar as we understand them
ourselves).  Some students find the subject matter easy; others struggle
with it.  However, factors other than it resisting being brought to
conscious attention are at play.

By the way, no apology is necessary.  I appreciate the suggestion of the
word "routinize," one that I would never have thought to use left to my own
devices.

I, too, am a musician, albeit far from an accomplished one.  I struggle
constantly on keyboard and guitar to get things "under my fingers," so I
know exactly what you are referring to with this analogy.

We absolutely agree that language does not simply happen.  Students
can--make that *must*--be taught to expand their language horizons, a
process that, like any other process that becomes routinized, begins with
conscious attention.

It seems to me that you tend to be more philosophical while I tend to be
more nuts and bolts.  For example, you talk about "mind"; I talk about
"brain."  And so we differ occasionally, for which I am grateful:  I have
learned a lot from reading your posts.

On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 3:00 PM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> John,
>
>     I agree that frequency (maintaining and strengthening) matters a great
> deal. We can think of things like contractions as arising out of frequency
> (when processing is easier.) Language arises out of social interaction.
> School often asks students to use language in new ways. Is that a matter of
> using old language in new ways or does language itself have to grow and
> expand to meet the new challenges?
>
>     When I wrote about resisting being brought to conscious attention, I
> was simply describing what I observe when I teach a grammar class, as I
> have done every year for quite some time. Some students seem to get it
> right away, but others have a hard time slowing things down and recognizing
> the meaningful relationships that happen in and through the grammar.  This
> certainly seems to me much more difficult when you are working with
> students who have not done this before in any kind of meaningful way. At
> some point in their lives, they learned this, but it’s hard to bring to
> light. (Once they do, by the way, they seem to enjoy it very much. The most
>  common comment I get from student evaluations is that the course is far
> more interesting and valuable than they had thought it would be.)
>
>     I apologize if any of this seemed like a criticism, but I had no way
> of knowing whether you felt any attachment to the content of the sentence.
>
>    As a somewhat skilled guitarist, I am much more aware of what I am
> currently trying to routinize versus what has become somewhat second
> nature. I have much more accessible memories of learning, for example, what
> constitutes a diminished chord and what finger shapes would allow me to
> produce it and what contexts it might sound appropriate. Much of language
> is obviously acquired when we are quite young. In that sense, it can be
> thought of as “deep,” which is, in itself, metaphoric.
>
>     I don’t think language is simply a biological unfolding, though we are
> obviously equipped to acquire it.  Social interaction is so important. And
> our students need to learn how to put language to work in ways they are not
> yet comfortable with.  What role does consciousness play in helping that
> happen? Too often, educators have used the idea that language simply
> happens to diminish the value of conscious attention. I would at least like
> to make it a much more open question. It seems, in fact, the most important
> question we can ask. Does understanding language help us understand what
> students need to learn? Is it useful for them to understand how language
> works as well? That means, of course, bringing some “deep” processes to
> conscious light. It might also mean helping them use language in ways they
> have not yet routinized.
>
>
>
>
>
> Craig
>
> *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *John Crow
> *Sent:* Monday, March 28, 2016 12:29 PM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: A Question
>
>
>
> Thanks guys--as usual, you nailed it with excellent analyses and great
> examples.
>
> Craig, I would beg to differ with you a bit on the side issue you raised.
> Neurons communicate via electro-chemical energy (neurotransmitters and
> action potentials).  Neuronal pathways that are used repeatedly are
> maintained and strengthened; those that aren't are either pruned or
> "overwritten."  I have no problem metaphorically calling the former process
> "routinization."  However, I think the metaphor that I used is more
> reflective of the actual process.
>
> I most certainly am not saying that "[t]he mind allows itself to be burned
> by language."  The brain neither allows nor forbids being routinized.
> Allowing and forbidding are conscious-brain concepts that make no sense
> when applied to the inner workings of the brain.  And "burned" is, of
> course, a metaphor, as you pointed out.  I am using an agentless passive
> construction here for a reason.
>
> I also have to take issue with saying that language "resists being brought
> to conscious attention . . ."  The vastly complex neuronal circuitry that
> comprises language can neither resist nor facilitate moving itself to
> conscious attention.   Neuroscientists estimate that the conscious brain
> occupies and is aware of 8% of the brain's inner workings.  The vast
> majority of what transpires in the brain happens beyond awareness.  For
> native speakers, most of what goes on during communication takes place in
> that 92% area--much like riding a bicycle or skilled piano playing.
>
> To me, Craig, you keep trying to anthropomorphize the natural functioning
> of the brain.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 27, 2016 at 11:59 PM, Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> Sort of like "here" and "there" or "up" and "down"? Perhaps serving
> somewhat like an appositive to an implied adverb...
>
> "... their language is burned *there*, deep into the circuitry of their
> brains..."
> "The dog buried the bone *here*, deep in the ground."
> "The eagle climbed *up and up*, high into the sky."
> "The clouds hung *down*, low on the horizon.
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2016 23:01:20 -0400
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: A Question
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
> Or maybe just a place adverbial?
>
>
>
> The dog buried the bone deep in the ground.
>
> The eagle climbed high into the sky.
> The clouds hung low on the horizon.
>
>
> On Mar 27, 2016, at 9:01 PM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]
> <[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>
> What we may have here is a stranded object complement in an agentless
> passive clause.
> X burned language deep into my memory.
> Language is burned deep into my memory (by X).
> Bruce gives some helpful examples of verbs that routinely take adjective
> object complements.
> The kids painted the wall black. (complex transitive, with "black" as
> object complement.) The wall was painted black by the kids. (passive
> version.) The wall was painted black. (Agentless passive. Black feels like
> a stranded adjective.)
> "Deep," though, seems to show up in non-passive clauses. "Still waters run
> deep." "Her remarks cut deep." (Perhaps I was cut deep by her remarks?)
> The big question might be what burns language deep into our memories. Is
> that an accurate or helpful metaphor for the process? The mind allows
> itself to be burned by language?
> To me, it makes more sense to say that much of language has become
> routinized. There is an evolutionary advantage to routinization in so many
> human activities. The language has been learned, becomes routinized, and
> then resists being brought to conscious attention, especially when the
> value of conscious attention has been denigrated and people have very
> little experience with it.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <
> [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>> on behalf of John
> Crow <[log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>>
> *Sent:* Sunday, March 27, 2016 5:19 PM
> *To:* [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
> *Subject:* A Question
>
>
>
> The following sentence bothers me:
>
> As a result, most of what native speakers “know” about their language is
> burned deep into the circuitry of their brains.
>
> What I cannot seem to come to grips with is the word "deep."  It is, to
> me, obviously an adverb, so it should be "deeply."  However, when I make
> that substitution, my internal grammar checker informs me that that's
> wrong.  What's going on here?
>
> Thanks!
>
> John
>
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