Paul, Patti and all,
I have a very thick file that holds my collection
of pseudo-subjunctives, a name that Quirk et al.
give to the If-clauses that use the subjunctive
"were" even though the statement may not be
contrary to fact. In all of these cases, it may
or may not :
John Grisham, "The Street Lawyer": "Come on," I
said, completely uncertain if he were telling the
truth."
Jim Lehrer (1999): "The president said he would
sign the bill if it were short-term."
David Mandell, author of "Obama: From Promise to
Power" (2007): "If there were any doubt left [of
his running for president], his visit to the
early-primary state of New Hampshire in December
erased it."
"Maya said her brother realized that he must
experience African-American culture up close if
he were to cleanse himself of his internal racial
confusion and bubbling anger."
Colin Dexter "The Way through the Woods" (1992):"
'Very good, sir,' Said Morse, uncertain whether
he monstrous misquotation were deliberate or not,
for he found the chief superintendent watching
him shrewdly."
David Broder: (2008) "Thompson was particularly
critical of farm subsidies, and when I asked if
he were really going to take that message to
Iowa, he said, "Yes, but . . . "
Time (2008): "Prozac Rudy never acted as if his heart were in the race."
AP (1998): "The president told Lewinsky to
contact Currie in the event she were subpoenaed."
And on and on.
Another fairly common use of the
subjunctive--correctly used, that is--is in that
clauses after verbs that convey a strong
suggestion or recommendation:
We suggested that Mary go with us.
We demanded that Bill go to the hospital immediately.
And after certain nouns related to commands and suggestions:
The suggestion that Bill see the doctor was a good one.
And the subjunctive lingers in other phrases:
I move that the meeting be adjourned.
And perhaps that certain loud voices on our list be tempered.
Early Valentine greetings to all,
Martha
>Curiouser and curiouser! I don't really teach it
>either, except when it comes up in student
>writing or in discussions about its use in
>literature (a rare occurance). I do find that I
>use it in speech -- at least the
>"if-conditional" form of it (I'm assuming that
>this really is a subjunctive). Students do learn
>it in their advanced foreign language classes
>(oops, I mean "world language!" I keep
>forgetting to be totally P.C.). I'd also add
>that I teach mostly honors English, but few of
>my students ever write things like "If I were
>you" or "For though it have holp madmen to their
>wits" (Shakespeare _Richard II_ 5.5.62)!
>
>
>
>Paul
>
>
>"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could
>condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth
>Night_ 3.4.127-128).
>
>
>
>From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 7:27:30 PM
>Subject: Re: Subjunctives - help wanted
>
>I figured that was the case, Paul.
>
>I should probably also mention that I teach the
>subjunctive for identification and knowledge
>sake more than anything else. I want them to
>know that the construction is out there, and if
>they can use it in their own writing that's
>great! However, I'd be a hypocrite if I tried to
>teach it as a highly functional part of spoken
>language because I don't use it. It has never
>been a part of my spoken language, only my
>formal written language (and sometimes it feels
>horribly stuffy even there).
>
>It's a fun way to talk about language registers
>beyond just the lexicon though. And, of course,
>it can be used quite masterfully in prose so for
>advanced students it's worth further exploration
>I think.
>
>John
>
>On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 5:57 PM, Paul E. Doniger
><<mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]>
>wrote:
>
>Yeah, perhaps I should have mentioned that I
>would not ever, no never, never, never try to
>teach these distinctions to my students! I
>have enough of a challenge thinking about them
>myself! I was just responding to Ed
>Vavra's posting.....and the moon isn't even
>full, yet!
>
>Paul
>
>"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could
>condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth
>Night_ 3.4.127-128).
>
>
>
>From: John Dews-Alexander
><<mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]>
>
>To: <mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]
>
>Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:38:10 PM
>
>Subject: Re: Subjunctives - help wanted
>
>
>Patty, I've firmly stayed away from breaking
>down the subjunctives into their various
>sub-types described by grammarians like Quirk et
>al. There are times when I feel uneasy about
>simplifying material, but this isn't one of
>them. The distinction between the types of
>subjunctive that Paul describes, in my opinion,
>simply isn't meaningful enough in English to
>teach at anything but an advanced level (by
>meaningful I suppose I mean "active" in a way,
>like affecting the syntax or morphology). I'm
>open to having my mind changed about that though.
>
>In the meantime, I just teach all of them as the
>subjunctive. Maybe that's just the easy way out,
>which I usually find a poor choice. I'm sticking
>to it for now though!
>
>John
>
>On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Patricia
>Lafayllve
><<mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]>
>wrote:
>
>In an ironic sort of wayŠ
>
>
>
>I just read Paul's post "before coffee." I read
>"were-subjunctive" in the same way one would
>read "were-wolf," and had to re-read the entire
>thing once I figured out which were was meant to
>be where.
>
>
>
>Sad, really. I had an entire humorous
>off-thread about whether or not students could
>use silver to defeat subjunctives, and how
>teachers could show them how to recognize
>subjunctives even before the full moon. Yes, I
>really did.
>
>
>
>Seriously, now - I understand calling a
>subjunctive using "if" a "hypothetical," because
>it is precisely that, but my concern would be
>that students would misapply their "weres" if we
>called it a "were-subjunctive" in the classroom.
>Is there a way we can make this case more
>clearly?
>
>
>
>-patty
>
>
>
>
>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
>Grammar
>[mailto:<mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]]
>On Behalf Of Paul E. Doniger
>Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 7:17 PM
>
>To: <mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]
>
>Subject: Re: Subjunctives - help wanted
>
>
>
>Quirk, et al, (_A Grammar of Contemporary
>English_. London: Longman, 1972: 76-77), call
>the subjunctive using "if" the
>"were-subjunctive" (which is a conditional form,
>too, I guess -- at least, I seem to remember
>learning it as the "conditional tense" -- of
>course, it really isn't a tense at all), saying
>it is "hypothetical in meaning." I'm not sure
>what makes it hypothetical at all; it seems
>quite real to me. They also say that it is
>restricted to one form ("were" of course) and is
>only used in the first & third person (singular
>past forms), as in "If Ed were here, we could
>discuss the subjunctive mood."
>
>
>
>Generally, they also suggest that the
>subjunctive isn't an important category
>in English (at least not any more), whatever
>that means. What makes a form 'important'? They
>also identify two other forms of the subjunctive
>(Mandative & Formulaic), but I am still trying
>to sort out the differences.
>
>
>
>On Ed's other comments, I say, "Heaven
>forbid" that a teacher should "correct" a
>student's use of the subjunctive; so few
>students know to use it any more. I find myself
>trying to get them to use it! It's such a nicely
>subtle and rich resource. I mourn its loss.
>
>
>
>Oh, well, "so be it!"
>
>
>
>Paul D.
>
>
>
>
>"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could
>condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth
>Night_ 3.4.127-128).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>From: Edward Vavra <<mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]>
>To: <mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]
>Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 3:22:46 PM
>Subject: Subjunctives - help wanted
>
>In KISS grammar, I have to deal with
>subjunctives, primarily because some (not all)
>teachers will mark a sentence such as "If he
>were here, I'd ask him" as containing a
>subject/verb agreement error. From my
>perspective, students do not need to learn the
>concept before seventh grade. (See KISS Level
>2.1.7 at
><http://home.pct.edu/~evavra/kiss/wb/LPlans/Overview.html#Grade-Level_Table>http://home.pct.edu/~evavra/kiss/wb/LPlans/Overview.html#Grade-Level_Table)
>
> But having introduced subjunctives, I'm not
>sure of how I want to handle them. The nature of
>subjunctives becomes very complex. I've seen
>some grammars that consider "If" causes as
>subjunctives. How many members of this list
>would agree?
>
>
>
>Can I assume that "had" constructions, such as
>"He we but world enough and time" are also
>subjunctives.
>
>
>
>My basic understanding was that subjunctives
>indicate something contrary to fact, but "if"
>clauses may or may not be so contrary. As I now
>see it, the confusion may result from
>differences in the three basic assumptions about
>definitions--meaning, form, and function.
>
>
>
>Comments will be appreciated.
>
>Ed
>
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