Brad,
To chime in here, I think you may be confusing "X means Y" with "In
*standard* English, use Z to mean Y instead, and use it for Y always."
As a child, I had no difficulty whatsoever in figuring out that
expressions such as "we done et before she showed up," "We ate before
she showed up," and "We had eaten before she arrived" meant that the
first event had completed before the second began. What I was taught in
school was not how to use the second version - instead, it was not to
use the first version, at least in writing, and to prefer the second
over the third (again, in writing). It is the artificialness of these
restrictions that turn them into "teacher points," and this is one of
those areas where editorial practice is probably more flexible than what
K-12 usage guides would have one believe. We can wear white shoes after
Labor Day, dang it (well, I wear hiking boots, but still....I could wear
white shoes if I wanted to).
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bruce Despain
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 10:01 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: learning grammar
I'm not sure that children need to know about "verbs" and "forms" per
se, to avoid mistakes with them. The pattern they learn has to do with
associating the words with the meanings. Brad seems to be saying the
verbs are "ate" and "had eaten." Those are the teacher's terms and not
the child's. In fact, arguably the verbs are "ate" (past or preterit
form of "eat") and "had" (past or preterit form of the verb "have").
"Had eaten" is a verb phrase consisting of the verb "had" (past or
preterit form) and "eaten" (a participle form of "eat"). This last form
is really an adjective form derived from the verb "eat." If we didn't
have certain teachers messing with the children's minds, they might
understand these concepts better. But it don't think it has anything to
do with them making "mistakes," maybe just with explaining to certain of
their teachers what they are doing with the language.
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 7:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: learning grammar
Inbound message: These are pervasive patterns in English that children
learn very early in life, well before they start school, and they rarely
make mistakes with them.
This is, as nearly as anyone knows, not what happens. Children have to
be taught that there is a verb form that is useful because it allows us
to show that by the time one past event occurred, another past event had
already occurred. "When the Queen arrived, they ate. When the Queen
arrived, they had eaten".
They ate either after she arrived or before she arrived, depending on
the verb form. This is the only example in the New York Times Style
Book. 'The Queen' example was also sent to me by an English professor in
England who opined that "it's the only way it can be done".
.brad.17mar09.
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