Hear! Hear!, Craig. Peace, David Brown--- On Sat 09/02, Craig Hancock < [log in to unmask] > wrote:From: Craig Hancock [mailto: [log in to unmask]]To: [log in to unmask]: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 10:29:00 -0400Subject: Re: Grammar Certification vs. scope and sequencePhil,>Your statement that "nothing is getting done" angers me a great deal.Even before you had any details about the program, you had verynegative and hostile things to say about it, and a good deal of energyhas been used up trying to reassure you that we are not the pack offools you have called us from time to time (with little curiosity aboutwhat we are about, almost no history of interaction.) Look back at our"word class" discussion and tell me you haven't derailed a consensus atevery major point. The same holds true of your stubborn insistence thatall nouns are "entities", to the point where some people came on listto say please cease and desist from fruitless talk. Without that, wecould have made 
quick and rapid progress.The project can go on if in fact we are not interrupted by someonetelling us the world will laugh at us if we try to change traditionalgrammar in ways other than the changes he would make.Personally, I think this goes beyond differences in philosophy andapproach and crosses over into a need on your part to own or controlwhatever gets done.I am certainly willing to take scope and sequence into committee. I canbring it back to the New Public grammar group, which has already donesome thoughtful work. You can do the same for your own project, butquite frankly, I will oppose any certification program that simplyseems like a hostile, confrontational approach to the profession andnot a reaching out. Whatever you come up with needs the support of ATEGbefore it can be an ATEG program. Scope and Sequence wasenthusiastically endorsed at our last annual meeting (at theconference.) We have a go ahead to proceed, and we would like to carryout that mandate with the 
understanding that it will come back toconference for future approval. You need to follow the same route ifyou want to use ATEG as the umbrella.Many of us are in public education, not working for the military. Isuspect our daily realities are very different. You may benefit fromseeing what we come up with and not assuming ahead of time that it willbe flawed.I will try to keep an open mind on what you are doing, but please don'tslow down our progress and then criticize us for moving too slow.CraigThis working at cross purposes may be what is bothering people, but as> nothing seems to be gettind done right now it may be the best place to> start. The problem of reconciling the two once there were fully worked> out draft proposals is unlikely to be that difficult. Or sharing earlier> drafts according to a schedule may be good too.> ,>>two independent committees, which isn't precisely what you've advocated,>>would to easily work at cross purposes (is 
"cross purposes" an "ice>>cream" phrase?). That there might be two groups working together and>>influencing each others work so as to arrive at a curriculum and>>certification standards seems reasonable.>>> Well read my review of the book in the last ATEG journal. I pointed out> the places where it varies.>>> I've gone through the Houghton Mifflin web site for Honegger's book, and>>it looks pretty decent. Given some of the things that he does with>>parts of speech, phrase structure, etc., I would not infer that it>>represents traditional grammar in the senses you have alluded to. But>>in terms of presentation of structure it's not bad.>>> Phil Bralich>>>>>-----Original Message----->>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar>>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Phil Bralich>>Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 2:55 PM>>To: 
[log in to unmask]>>Subject: Re: Grammar Certification vs. scope and sequence>>>>>>>>Perhaps I left a step out of the argument. I agree with many on this>>>list that we need a new grammar curriculum. You and I differ on that.>>>>>>You are really missing the whole discussion here. Scope and sequence>>are a part of any field's curriculum design. Certification or the>>offering of degrees is the result of a curriculum having been taught.>>The development of a final test for certification naturally must be>>based on the curriculum that is offered by the school offers the>>curriculum. However, the issues that arise in the splitting of a fields>>body of knowledge into a series for scope and sequence are very>>different from the issues that arise in trying to test that field's body>>of knowledge all-of-a-peice as a certifcation exam. The issues are>>sufficiently 
different that not only do they suggest two different>>committees to develop them, they more or less compell us to create two>>committees. This is what you keep missing here.>>>>>>>>>I'm not being intentionally dense when I say that I don't understand>>>what you mean by "... the entirety of traditional grammar is>>>inescapable." Both "entirety" and "inescapable" are a little unclear>>to>>>me.>>>>Take a look at my review of Mark Honegger's _Grammar for Writing_ in the>>last ATEG Journal. I made a similar discussion and pointed this out>>with more examples when I explained why I believed his book was very>>complete and that he had, in spite of protests to the contrary, provided>>the entirety of traditional grammar.>>>>>>Phil Bralich>>>>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web>>interface at:>> 
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html>>and select "Join or leave the list">>>>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/>>>>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web>> interface at:>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html>>and select "Join or leave the list">>>>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface> at:> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html> and select "Join or leave the list">> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or leave the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

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