Hi Christine,
I am not aware of any. No, French does not have any. One does, however, find some forms of French in Canada, particularly New Brunswick, which combine a French verb such as 'venir' with 'back'.
Do you teach ESL to francophones? If so where? And if so, how do you handle faux amis?
Bye, Ron.
.
----- Original Message -----
From: Christine Reintjes
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: Reasons for teaching PVs in the ESL context.
Ron,
Are there any other languages besides English that have phrasal verbs? Is it possible that French has one or a few? I'm trying to think of one, but I'm realizing they are all prepositional verbs.
--
Christine Reintjes Martin
[log in to unmask]
> Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 02:57:44 -0700
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Reasons for teaching PVs in the ESL context.
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Herb,
>
> My problem with your calling 'look after' (and subsequently 'look at') a
> transitive verb creates a serious problem in terms of how I have taught
> phrasal verbs for many years.
>
> In ESL terms, there are four purposes in teaching about phrasal verbs.
>
> First, in the case of francophones (and most ESL learners), they have to be
> encouraged to use phrasal verbs as much as possible and this, because
> phrasal verbs constitute the essence of English colloguial speech and are
> not present in their own language.
>
> Second, they need to understand the amazing productivity of phrasal verbs in
> creating new figurative meanings which they need to be encouraged to add to
> their vocab.
>
> Third, they have to become used to thinking of phrasal verbs as verbs plus
> adverbial particles, and this, because their own languages do not have
> phrasal verbs (though they do have prepositional verbs). Consequently, they
> demonstrate a tendency to use verbs without the particle. I remember a
> (highly fluent speaker of English) French colleague telling me to 'pick a
> book' I had dropped. Similarly, last week, an Indian lady here in Dubai who
> had spoken English from a very early age, told me that she would 'pick her
> son at 7 o'clock'. Thus, in both cases, 'up' was omitted.
>
> Fourth, (and most importantly in the context of the present discussion), we
> have to teach ESL students to distinguish between transitive phrasal verbs
> and prepositional verbs in order that they understand (and learn to produce)
> why they can say both 'He looked up the word' and 'He looked the word up'
> but cannot do the same with 'look at' and other prepostional verbs.
>
> It is for this reason, Herb, that I would prefer NOT to teach ESL students
> that verbs such as 'look after' are transitive verbs. It makes far more
> sense pedagogically to treat 'his mother' in 'He looked after his mother'
> as the object of the preposition and not of the verb.
>
> Ron Sheen
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 9:40 AM
> Subject: Re: Those old transitivity blues was Help for a puzzled teacher
>
>
> Ron,
>
> I think your ESL pedagogy is sound. We really don't disagree on that or
> on what makes for useful and effective practice, and what doesn't. I'm
> not sure I see what you're getting at, though, with your contrast of
> "look after" and "look at". From the perspective of grammatical
> analysis I'd call them both (mono)transitive prepositional verbs,
> capture the fact that the preposition has become lexically bound to the
> verb. Consider, for example, how "look at" has become "lookit" in
> informal speech. But ESL students don't need this level of
> differentiation and can do quite well considering "look" intransitive
> and the prepositional phrase adverbial. Different goals.
>
> Herb
>
>
> Well, that's all very well, Herb, but it doesn't really answer my
> question
> which was 'If you consider 'look after' as a monotransitive
> prepositional
> verb, what do you consider 'look at' to be, and if you differentiate
> them
> how do you do so in an ESL class?
>
> In my view, again in an ESL class, one should consider neither to be
> transitive, sticking to the assumption that the following nouns are
> objects
> of the prepositions.
>
> Again, as I think we understand, we are concerned here with pedagogical
> clarity and not accurate sophisticated linguistic analysis.
>
> As to the old chestnut of grammatical drills, I do not know what you
> understand them to be, Herb. but my understanding of them entails the
> repetition of forms without having to think about them. As such, I
> would
> not have them within ten miles of my classroom. All controlled practice
>
> should require some form of reflection on an underlying rule even though
> it
> might be instantaneous.
>
> As an example of identifying phrasal verbs and particle movement after a
>
> period of instruction, I would organise a class for pair work in the
> following way. Each pair is named A and B. B receives a sheet on
> which
> there are listed examples of sentences which contain a variety of
> sentences
> some of which contain both transitive phrasal verbs and prepositional
> verbs.
> The sheet also contains the answers so that B can act as 'teacher'.
> The
> instructions are as follows:
>
> Listen to the example. If you think there is a phasal verb in the
> sentence, move the particle appropriately and say the modified sentence.
> If
> you think that the verb is a prepositional verb, simply say so.
>
> B reads an example such as
>
> The man put on his hat.
>
> Students answers: The man put his hat on.
>
> B says 'Correct'.
>
> If A says, Prepositional verb, B tries to get him to think about his
> answer
> and correct it.
>
> I developed this technique many years ago and have used it very
> frequently
> with all levels. I have found that the students like it and quickly
> develop
> their own teachniques to prompt their fellow students into changing
> their
> incorrect answers for correct ones.
>
> Further, this to me underlies what I condier to be an important
> principle of
> successful pair work. That is that one of the pair needs to be able to
>
> provide the correct answer.
>
> Ron Sheen
>
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