Here's an example of a non-restrictive with "that" that I find at least
marginally acceptable:
The situation in Iraqi Ministry of Justice, that I was telling you about
last week, has gotten worse over the past two days.
It seems to work better with more complex noun phrases like this one
than with simple head nouns.
??The situation, that I was telling you about last week, has gotten
worse over the past two days.
I don't have a strong sense that the former sentence would be better
with "which" for "that."
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: 2008-03-09 23:17
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: That/Which Rule post from WPA
The that/restrictive vs. which/nonrestrictive contrast is found pretty
widely, although non-restrictives in "that" do occur but are, as
Huddleston and Pullum note, marginal. As Baron suggests, Fowler did
contribute to the modern formal usage of "that" and "which," but he
didn't particularly simplify an inherently messy situation.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Martha Kolln
Sent: 2008-03-09 18:32
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: That/Which Rule post from WPA
Carol,
I like Francis Christensen's explanation of the difference between
restrictive and nonrestrictive modifiers in his Notes Toward a New
Rhetoric. He uses the terms "defining" and "commenting." And the lack
of commas (with the that-clause) means that the clause is defining--that
is, pointing out a particular lawnmower. He also says this:
A restrictive modifier makes one statement and implies its
opposite.
In the case of your sentence (a): The opposite, implied, statement is
this: "The lawnmower that is not broken is not in the garage." That is
to say, the reader of (a) has the right to infer that meaning. If that
meaning is not accurate--if, in fact, there is only one lawnmower--then
the commas are called for. And that means we need the which-clause.
(That-clauses are never set off by commas.)
Here's the restrictive/nonrestrictive lesson I use; it involves a simple
appositive, not an adjectival clause, but the principle is the same. I
put two sentences on the board:
My husband, John, is a farmer.
My son John is a student.
Then I ask the class what I have just told them about the size of my
family. The answer is that I have more than one son. In other words, I
have a son not-John who is not a student. I usually add another
comment to emphasize the message: "If I were to tell my office partner,
'My husband is sick today,' what would be his response?" The class
usually comes up with "Sorry to hear it" or "I hope he's not contagious"
or some other remark. Then I ask what my friend's response would be to
this statement: "My son is sick today." Of course, his response would
be "Which one?" In other words, the noun phrase "my husband" has only
one possible referent; the referent of "my son" has not been defined.
In the case of the that/which topic, it's safe to say that "that clauses
are never set off by commas"; which clauses, however, go both ways; a
which-clause without commas is equivalent to a that-clause. I prefer to
make the distinction, keeping which for non-restrictive (commenting)
modifiers. But that preference is far from universal. Modern prose
uses which-clauses both ways.
Martha
I'm not familiar with Fowler, but Strunk & White say: "that is
the defining, or restrictive pronoun, which the nondefining, or
nonrestrictive" (87).
They give the following examples:
a) The lawn mower that is broken is in the garage.
vs.
b) The lawn mower, which is broken, is in the garage.
Frankly, I don't see the difference. If we are wondering which
lawn mower is in question (ie. there are several lawn mowers in the
garage and only one is broken), one might ask, "which one is broken?"
And the owner of the lawn mowers might say "that one is broken," or,
"the one which is broken is there." I don't really see the difference.
Maybe someone can explain.
Carol
Linda Di Desidero <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Hi, all
Here's a post that came through the WPA listserv on the origin
of 'that/which' THAT I thought you might like.
Linda
-----------------------------------------------------
There's a new post on the Web of Language --
Happy Birthday, Henry Fowler: inventor of that/which rule is 150
on
Monday, March 10
March 10, 2008, is the 150th birthday of Henry Watson Fowler,
high
school Latin teacher, lexicographer, and author of the
Dictionary of
Modern English Usage (1926), the most important book on English
usage
of the 20th century (sorry Strunk and White, you lose hands
down).
So here's my e-card to the man who single-handedly invented the
difference between that and which and convinced thousands of
copy
editors that Druids had carved it on an ancient pillar at
Stonehenge....
(picture here -- you have to go onlline to see it)
Actually, Fowler never hid the fact that he wasn't given the
that/
which rule on Mt. Sinai. Quite the opposite: he insisted that
"the
relations between that, who, & which have come to us from our
forefathers as an odd jumble, & plainly show that the
language has
not been neatly constructed by a master-builder" (Modern
English
Usage, 1926, that, s.v.; I'm not going to recount
Fowler's rule here,
because it's too complicated, requiring a discussion of
restrictive
and nonrestrictive clauses that's not particularly
entertaining).
So Fowler decided to improve this jumble because, as he
put it, "the
temptation to show how better use might have been made
of the
material to hand is sometimes irresistible."....
Read the rest at the Web of Language
DB
Dennis Baron
Professor of English and Linguistics
Department of English
University of Illinois
608 S. Wright St.
Urbana, IL 61801
Linda Di Desidero, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Assistant Academic Director of Writing
University of Maryland University College
3501 University Boulevard, East
Adelphi, MD 20783
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